The Mormon Factor

THX 1138

Calling Teppe...!!

Table for Teppe!!

Batter up!!

Ding, ding, ding, ding!!!

Mormon “theologians” always like to link Biblical verses with BOM verses. So where is the BOM cross references to those verses?

Your rapid multiple posts clearly prove my point in regards to your unhealthy obsession with Mormonism.

Thank you for taking me off your list, if you would.

Hey, it's an open forum. It's not often that a Mormon tosses three "prophets" (Kimball, Joseph Fielding Smith, Lorenzo Snow) under the bus in a few posts...but you've managed. Therefore, I should sell tickets.

I could make it a new game show: "Prophet Bus-Tossing"

Please don't bother trying to continually ping me...

Hey, in case you haven't noticed, a silent "ping" is easier to ignore than a Mormon mishie ringing away at your doorbell. (Or is it Mormon doorbell proselytism for me but not a response ping for thee kind of lopsided mentality?)

ALL: Lurkers. Mormons. Ex Mormons. Those in the true Christ. Interested parties, all. Did you all note the very verse -- and context of that verse -- that Ripliancum stuck in the middle of his foray into the Bible?

Here, let me cite it:
Philip. 2:9 God also hath highly exalted him [Ripliancum]

Do you all realize Rip's implication here?

Since in Mormonism, "exaltation" = becoming a god,
and since this verse is talking about none other than Jesus Christ,
Rip is claiming here that the Almighty Everlasting Son of God from eternity past became a god.
[And of course, in Mormonism, that narrative pops up post-Satan's arrival on the scene]

Rip is saying that post-Satan, Jesus got the "god job." (And, you, too, just like Jesus, can get the Mormon god job).

ALL: So. If you want to understand the Mormon evolution of a spirit -- namely who they call the Mormon Jesus -- here it is: From...
...primordial eternal spirit goo (Lds D&C 93:29,33)...
...to you-like (minus a body that is), Satan's older bro...
...then to an angelic-like messenger (Jehovah of the Old Testament)...
...then an embodied man...
...and only then awarded godhood!

This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see the rest of Philippians 2 that Ripliancum ripped out of context). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.

This is why you have to watch sly, distortion-minded Mormons. They'll rip a passage out of context. Here's Phil. 2:6-7 showing Jesus was already a being who was "in very nature God" -- and yet willingly yielded that acknowledgement as God -- "equality with God" -- as something He had to grasp. He could take the absolute humble route:

6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

The True Jesus Christ: Savior, not a Saved Being

In contrast, the Mormon christ is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad: "Christ is a saved being” (lds apostle McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257)

“Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) (Please also see McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)

There ya go. Ripliacum's Jesus needed to be "saved." Needed to become a god.

Blasphemy and heresy! All in one fell Joseph Smith swoop!

Seriously, don’t you ever stop? Did some Mormon hurt you or your family that you hold such bitter animosity for members of my faith?

Are you denying that the god of Mormonism was once a man in Mormonism mythology and had to earn the attributes of godhood to be appointed the god over Earth? ... Careful, Rip, you’re exposing your backside and the heresies and blasphemies at the heart of Mormonism.

Since in Mormonism, "exaltation" = becoming a god, and since this verse is talking about none other than Jesus Christ, Rip is claiming here that the Almighty Everlasting Son of God from eternity past became a god. [And of course, in Mormonism, that narrative pops up post-Satan's arrival on the scene]
Rip is saying that post-Satan, Jesus got the "god job." (And, you, too, just like Jesus, can get the Mormon god job).

Lets peel back the onion layer further Colofornian. Somehow Jesus must have LOST that godhood, because it is mormon doctrine that Jesus was the God named Jehovah in the OT. Somehow Jesus became a god then WITHOUT his earthly trial OR receiving his body of flesh and bone - Something that the mormon heavenly father - Elohiem - was unable to accomplish in his progression from man to god.

Let us not forget the mormon god "Holy Ghost" who is stuck without a body OR a name.

Seems like our apologist is hiding more of the confused and distorted theology of mormonism than one could imagine.

So Jesus needed to be "saved" - who died for Jesus then? Inquiring minds want to know.

So, Rip. Can't address the Biblical issues before us, eh?

So. Just resort to judging inward motives & a past you can't manufacture. Get down & dirty & go personal.

Well, I've already answered this, Rip.

I love my Mormon family & friends. No bitterness -- cause there was no "cause" for bitterness.

What seems to flabbergast you is that truth is to be loved, and falsehoods are to be overcome and dismissed.

#1 ...[the] reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” (Jesus Christ, John 18:37)

#2 The apostle Paul said: The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 Cor. 10:4-5)

When your leaders, Rip, take aim at Biblical truth, we're not just supposed to "wink" at it like you've done on this thread -- claiming in post #85 that "Being a 'God of your own planet' is just so dang juicy, that's it's oft repeated and you just can't help yourself...I stand by my statement. It is absolutely a talking point of you antis. That is not the way the Church teaches it..."

Let's go to Lds.org, shall we? First, under the heading, TEACHING CHILDREN FROM FOUR TO ELEVEN YEARS OLD

President Spencer W. Kimball has said: “There is a purpose in the building of this earth and in the creation of man, that he might have a place in which to live, to perfect himself that he might become perfect and … raise HIMSELF, with the help of his Father, to godhood. “EACH ONE of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to GOVERN SUCH A WORLD WITH ALL OF ITS PEOPLE. “...You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], p. 31).
Source: TEACHING CHILDREN FROM FOUR TO ELEVEN YEARS OLD

Part of this same exact quote is what the Mormon church teaches to teens and college students as well:
College students (in fact, what the Lds church teaches is what Kimball told college students @ the at the University of Utah Institute of Religion)...
...based on your statement, Rip, I guess you've never lived in Utah, eh?
Chapter 10 The Purpose of Earth Life Introduction [for college students]
HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS: Back to Table Of Contents Doctrine and Covenants 130 Introduction

So, All, who has shot their credibility to hell itself?

Ripliancum, who refuses to acknowledge the citations I gave in post #42 even exist as something other than supposedly what "antis" make up...

Or those who cite present tense Mormon sources directly -- sources that you can click on with your mouse and go right there?

What, Rip? Doncha know what the Mormon church is teaching even to its 4 to 11 year-olds?

You owe us an apology for your accusations and false statements.

But never mind us. What are you going to say when God asks you why you didn't repent of following false prophets and false teachers when it was pointed out to you -and you seemed to agree that a false prophet is anyone who teaches that you will head...
..."a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god"
-- and, after raising yourself to godhood (with a bit of help from the Mormon god, of course)
“...EACH ONE of you has it within the realm of his possibility...to GOVERN SUCH A WORLD WITH ALL OF ITS PEOPLE.

Source: Lds "prophet" Kimball, link above direct from what the Mormon church teaches this very second@!!@

Seems like our apologist is hiding more of the confused and distorted theology of mormonism than one could imagine. So Jesus needed to be "saved" - who died for Jesus then? Inquiring minds want to know.

The "Jesus" of Mormonism is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many?

Per Brigham Young (yeah, the one they named a university after): "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?...Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870)

To Mormonism, Jesus isn't a universal savior. He's one in a long string of saviors. And, as pointed out, Mormon leaders think he needed to be saved, too...because they also TEACH (Yes, Ripliancum, PRESENT TENSE, TEACH!!!) -- in that same link I had for college students in the last post (IOW, you can find this, too @ Lds.org) that Christ wasn't perfect...MORE Mormon blasphemy!

“Christ BECAME perfect through overcoming. Only as we overcome shall we become perfect and move toward godhood. . . . The time to do this is now, in mortality. “. . . Men do not suddenly become righteous any more than a tiny acorn suddenly becomes an oak. Advancement to perfection can nevertheless be rapid if one resolutely strides toward the goal” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 210).
Source: Chapter 10 The Purpose of Earth Life Introduction [for college students]

Mormons, repent for embracing the blasphemous heresy that Christ had to "become" perfect!!!! (It's YOUR tithing that's paying for Lds.org!)

Somehow Jesus must have LOST that godhood, because it is mormon doctrine that Jesus was the God named Jehovah in the OT. Somehow Jesus became a god then WITHOUT his earthly trial OR receiving his body of flesh and bone

Convoluded theology to say the least. Yes, Lds do teach that Jesus = Jehovah god of the OT. So, the Mormon jesus must have "lost" his godhood...strove by overcoming to BECOME perfect...and became saved...The only other option is if Jesus did this "saved" from his supposed sin on some other planet..."another life" which Mormon leaders haven't breathed about to my knowledge.

Did some Mormon hurt you or your family that you hold such bitter animosity for members of my faith?

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

MORMONism has LIED (and continues to) about Christianity.

WE are NOT going away; no matter WHAT you HERETICS want.

Of course the “golden plates” and “reformed Egyptian” are prominent among the absurd.

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story. No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

.

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.