Just A Reminder
Please Don't Forget
To Donate To FR
Sponsoring FReepers are contributing
$10 Each time a New Monthly Donor signs up!
Get more bang for your FR buck!
Click Here To Sign Up Now!
Posted on 11/03/2011 5:05:17 PM PDT by mandaladon
In general, rifle rounds go so much faster than pistol rounds (even out of carbine bbls) that they cause a lot more damage even with lighter bullets. There is a point at which damage reaches an equivalent level considering faster rifle velocity vs. increased bullet weight/larger hole of average pistol round. Bottom line: any small arm that dependably delivers ordnance on target (standard rifle or pistol caliber) will accomplish the mission.
The M44 Mosin-Nagant carbine has a huge flash, but its not capable of select fire (it's a 5 shot bolt-action) and the XM177E1 is both semi and full auto. Cyclic rate for the XM177E1 is 750-800 rounds per minute and THAT is one huge, continuous muzzle flash.
Remember, the 3-foot muzzle flash from the XM177E1 occurred in bright daylight. Imagine pitch black night without ambient lighting from civilization — you are in the jungle — and believe me it is DARK. The XM177E1 firing would light up your area like a magnesium flare.
Actually, it is 62 grains... The M855 has a 19 grain steel penetrator with the remander of the bullet being 43 grains of copper - no lead. The new M855A1 bullet is still 62 grains, but has a bismuth-tin alloy core with a steel “stacked-cone” penetrating tip. The old round wasn't doing the job well enough when the bad guy was behind a windshield - they were being deflected.
Please know that I'm not trying to be "smart" with you or anything like that... It's just that I am a bit OCD when it comes to bullets and ballistics data. I have to be... I get tested on it by my students in every class. "What is the coefficient for the ______ round?" "What is the velocity of ______ at 600 meters?" "What is the highest level above ground for the M118LR round on a 900 meter target?" (Answer: About 16 feet above ground when firing prone.) The questions never end, and if you get one wrong you lose credibility.
To your earlier question, the problem here is that with a 6.5” barrel you won’t come anywhere near the velocity needed for fragmentation. Huge fireball, lots of noise, lousy stability and no fragmentation.
You’d be much better off with something like the new 300 BLK ammo, designed to work well in an 8” barrel (and suppressor-friendly to boot, given the good odds of firing indoors) and still using most of the AR15 platform & design (if you’re so keen on it).
Identify the application & requirements, THEN build something to match. This Gilboa APR is just a retread of “hey, let’s see how far we can chop down an AR15”.
Maybe you’ve got the insight & data I’ve tried putting together: seems there’s a need for a graph laying out velocity vs. barrel length vs. twist vs. weight vs. whatever and indicating a happy zone of “if your implementation of these factors don’t end up in the happy zone it won’t work”. The AR platform is great when everything comes together, but is very finicky about what “comes together” entails.
Come on guys... Come up with something that is actually NEW.
I have that laying around here somewhere... Maybe not exactly what you are looking for, but a close deal. I’m not sure exactly what all is on the graphic, but I’ll try to dig it up and will let you know by FReepmail. I’ll send it to you by regular e-mail as an attachment if I can find it.
Or this:
“Many of the military spec 5.56mm WILL frag if it is one of the several cantalured rounds at at least around 26-2800 ft/sec.”
really, I am sure the enforcers of the Geneva Convention would be very interested in that little factoid.
The Belgian 62 grain bullet was adopted as NATO standard, but has proved to be inadequate in 14.5" barreled M-4 carbine. The US is now moving on to even heavier bullets than 68 grains for the M-4 and other M-16 platforms. The 77 grain Mk 262 round is in current production for special forces and squad designated marksmen using the Mk 12 rifle. MK-262 round sole producer has been Black Hills, but due to increased demand of the round for other M-16 platforms, looks like Lake City will now be starting production.
what is so special about this and why should we care?
Now, I made it a point to say I was not trying to be smart toward you in my original reply... But if you make an error, even innocently, don't deflect to another another discussion in order to draw attention away from the original statement. Just say, "Yes, that is what I should have said, and BTW: the U.S. is currently moving toward even heavier rounds like the current rounds with which the military Spec-Ops guys are experimenting in the field. Those heavier rounds are not yet standard issue to all troops." Now that is an accurate statement to which I would have probably said something like "Cool... They're learning lessons from the old boys that have been busting prairie dogs out at 700 yards with the AR platform."
The fact is that there are currently more than 6 various experimental rounds (XM287, XM288, XM777, XM778, XM779, XM780 just to name the ones I can off the top of my head) and then rounds such as the Mk282 (in Mod 0 with the SMK bullet, and Mod 1 with the Nosler or Sierra) that are in use with U.S. Army and U.S.N. Spec-Ops units in the SPR or (in Navy nomenclature) the Mk12. This is basically the same set-up as the Counter-sniper rifles that I have built for law enforcement agencies for years (where agencies were too cheap to let their designated shooter operate with a 700PSS, an H&K PSG1, or an M-21 or M-25, all good 7.62mm long range rifles.) And yes, I used barrels that would properly stabilize bullets in the mid-70 grain range so that they could increase their distance from the target in the hot zone.
The bullet designer boys for the military are continuously designing and testing new rounds... For them it is job security. If they tell the brass that the military is using the best bullet that can be designed, they would be part of the next RIF.
inhumane as in they do not give a clean kill, but most apt to only wound leaving the animal to die a long suffering death. (game animals don't have medics and triage)
Actually the Hague peace conference of 1898 and 1907 was predated by the 1868 St. Petersburg Declaration prohibiting the use of exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams and soft bullets which would expand in human flesh.
its just a glorified PDW, sort of like an FN P-90
The P90 was a total redesign from the bullet up to match a very specific application.
This Gilboa APR is a mashup of social coolness for no particular purpose.
can you imagine the muzzle blast from that sucker?
what I meant was, it looks like that piece was designed as a self defense weapon for truck drivers, tankers, bodyguards and chopper pilots so they would have a weapon with more reach than from a pistol if they have to get out of a burning vehicle in a hurry.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.