Posted on 10/02/2011 11:18:39 PM PDT by Olog-hai
A conspiratorially minded observer would be hard pressed not to conclude that the European financial crisis is a German plot. Southern Europe, indebted beyond its means and facing impoverishment as the bond-trading vultures detect easy prey, is now looking to Germany as its savior. The financial mess has completed Germany's redemption from pariah to the leader of Europe.
The capstone to Germany's reemergence came in the Bundestag vote on Thursday approving a massive increase in the European Stability Fund to 440 billion. A few parliamentarians protested the bailout, but most docilely approved it.
It would be no small irony if this woman from the East (Angela Merkel) ends up creating the united Europe originally espoused by the ardent Rhinelander Konrad Adenauer, who had his sights set firmly westward.
It is certainly possible that Merkel may have to move to a two-tiered Europe, one in which a core zone pursues more rapid political integration while southern Europe revamps its economies. But for now, the clear winner is Merkel and the newly emboldened Germany she is leading. Yes, Germans will grumble about being on the financial hook for their profligate cousins down south, and Slovakia will have to be muscled over as one of the remaining seventeen countries to approve the bailout package. But Berlin will ensure that it happens. With great financial responsibility comes even greater power. Merkel now has the opportunity to recreate Europe in Germany's image.
(Excerpt) Read more at nationalinterest.org ...
Hughesian pointed out that “The germany Churchill warned of is not the Germany of today” — this is clearly the case, Germany of today is not the German Empire.
What’s funny is that I am probably a whole lot more anti-EU than he is.
A person who has a problem with Germany should be happy with the failed EU. Not arguing against it. LoL!
So, bluntly Churchill wanted to set up this EU.
Also, the fact that some Germans have a particular idea about the Palestinians does not reflect on the official co-operation between the countries and consider the number of stupid people we have in our own country who do not support Israel -- are you then going to blame all of us Americans for the misguided views of some?
Exactly. In fact the Germans will lose money whichever way. The Greeks and others are not going to give any collateral of any sort.
I find it incredible that someone who has not spent any time living in any part of Europe can claim that the EU is an empire.
Oh, the wife (who's Polish) and I are both anti-EU too (she voted against joining in 2004), yet the madness spoken about the EU is just madness. It's more like a brain-numbing bureaucracy that crushes development rather than an "empire" of any sort
you are correct that A person who has a problem with Germany should be happy with the failed EU. Not arguing against it.
You sure about that? Germany currently controls an empire of 26 other European nations. The constitutional court decision of 2009 literally enshrined that. It's the German elites (especially of the CDU) that regard a united Europe under German control as their "passion" as it were. Helmut Kohl once said that "(t)he future will belong to the Germans when we build the House of Europe" (note not any other nation) and "Might is right in politics and war" (this is the man that started the civil war in Yugoslavia by unilaterally recognizing the independence of Croatia and Slovenia, even against President George H.W. Bush's warnings). The ECB is patterned after the Bundesbank, and the euro is patterned after the Deutsche mark. German elites from Adenauer on down were in pursuit of this kind of union from post-WWII onward; Adenauer cabinet minister Hans Seeborn once said, "Does free Europe want to join Germany? Germany is the heart of Europe, and the limbs must adjust themselves to the heart, not the heart to the limbs"so that shows their viewpoint on who should be the leader of a united Europe.
Hughesian pointed out that The germany Churchill warned of is not the Germany of today this is clearly the case, Germany of today is not the German Empire
That's not me. I lived in the Republic of Ireland for nine years. And why should it make any difference where one lives anyhow? The view from inside an empire can be quite distorted versus outside, especially when one is deluged with said empire's propaganda.
I find it incredible that someone who has not spent any time living in any part of Europe can claim that the EU is an empire
Your logic fails in the face of his quote. He did not want to set it up from the German pattern or by the German elites. But that had already started with the Treaties of Paris and Rome. You certainly can't claim that the English built the EU of today.
Secondly, Churchill said that comment during WWII and the full quote is the Churchill said that there must be a United States of Europe and then the rest of the statement you quoted.
So, bluntly Churchill wanted to set up this EU
The USA does not have a majority that believes the lie of the Israeli government conducting a so-called "war of extermination" against Palestinians, or half its population equating the IDF with the Nazi armed forces of WWII. And where did you get "a particular idea about the Palestinians" from, when I cited a "particular idea" about Israel?? never mind the fact that I never, ever brought the word "all" into anything related to Germany's population"majority", last time I looked, certainly does not mean "all".
Also, the fact that some Germans have a particular idea about the Palestinians does not reflect on the official cooperation between the countries and consider the number of stupid people we have in our own country who do not support Israel are you then going to blame all of us Americans for the misguided views of some?
The EU's not going to break apart. Too many foreign investors are betting on it, and against the USA to boot. You think that the elites, with the state of mind they have had and continue to have, will pass up the opportunity for grabbing global power?
A person who has a problem with Germany should be happy with the failed EU. Not arguing against it
olog: you sure about that?
Yes. I interact with Poles daily who have no love for Germans and they suspect them of nearly everything (they and the Russians of course). Yet to them as well your theory of Germany currently controls an empire of 26 other European nations. is ludicrous as it has no facts
On the contrary the Germans have been so desperate to redeem themselves for WWII, they have submitted to being slapped around by Greece etc.
To call the EU the German Empire is to ignore facts. To call Germany the cash-cow of the EU is the fact
Kohl: future will belong to the Germans -- I find it very suspicioius that that is neatly excerpted to "the future will belong to the Germans...... when we will build the House of Europe" nice trick -- what was replaced by elipses? Firstly, he said this during German reunification and speaking to French and other leaders -- the "we" is obviously the leaders of the EU at that time and the first part is about German reunification -- nice sleight of hand to excerpt
And you'll be pleased to hear him say about Angela Merkel: "She's ruining my Europe"
If the Euro is patterned after the DM, how come it is collapsing?
And your logic fails for the Churchill quote — this was stated during WWII not during your idea of the creation of the EU. This was also set for a different time and place — the Germans of that time are not the Germans of today
Somehow all the breaks got eaten up. Sorry for this wall of text.
This was not a fairly average duchy and it was not within the holy Roman Empire -- it was a military state. The Prussian kingdom and thenceforth the German Empire took those characteristics
I said the Germans before the 30-years were cultured, scholarly etc. Also quite frankly the Germans AFTER the 30-years war with the exception of the Prussians WERE cultured and scholarly. Germania was not regarded as backwards or a barbaric cesspool in the 1600s - it was the site of battles but not a barbaric land
Charles V, holy Roman Emperor lived from 1500 to 1558 -- nearly a 100 years before the 30 years war.
The Prussians were a continuous threat from their point of secularisation -- the Polish Kings made a mistake of not eliminating the Duchy when they had the chance
Sure Prussia was never squeamish in using military power to accomplish their national interests but 'tyranny' isn't the first trait I would associate with Prussia and for sure not in the context of "over lands that had not known it" most monarchs and their nobles of this time were a lot more autocratic and abusive with their power -- actually I would. Read about what they did in Poland in the 1800s. They were tyrannical and the entire culture of the Junkers excluded the development of culture besides the glorification of the military.
Frederic II may have SAID all religions are equal but what he really meant was that he would take anyone that was useful to him. His successors were not so nice -- witness the KulturKampf
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.