Posted on 07/11/2011 11:45:12 AM PDT by lbryce
Smell test? This discussion demonstrates that in this continuing debate it all depends who’s doing the smelling and whether ex post facto stiffs can be relied upon. If they can be, then what is called the “New Testament” is likewise open to new sniffing and a “Newer Improved Testament” and then an “Even Newer and More Improved Testament,” etc could and should logically be in the offing.
History doesn't support your assumption. There have been new translations, and new understandings of old mysteries... but then, that simply shows the Wisdom of God in giving the Church a Magisterium to teach and to hold the doctrines and Scriptures firm. Although the Catholic Church is formed of men and men have a tendency to abuse and corruption which must be dealt with from time to time, the doctrines and dogma of the Church have not wavered in 2,000 years. We study the same Scripture the early Church Fathers studied.
To those outside the Church, the New Testament seems to be something invented. However, closer examination shows it to be seamless with the Old Testament. The Church studies Scripture through typology which shows that the New Covenant is promised in the Old, and the Old is fulfilled in the New. Typology shows us that passing from the Old to the New is more than just turning the page from Malachi to Matthew. It shows us how Jesus' coming, in the fullness of time, represents the hinge of history — world history and personal history, your life and mine. Typology is not just a literary device, not just an interpretive key to a difficult book. Typology means something intimate for all of us, our movement from servitude to sonship, from time to eternity, from the natural to the supernatural, from earth to heaven . . . from our Creator to our Father. (the last part was borrowed from Scott Hahn)
A real understanding of the promises of God, revealed in Christ and carried forward in the Church, would clearly demonstrate the absurdity of your logical proposition.
Sure you will.
Read a book like " Woman Rides the Beast" then get back to me.
Truth is I can tell you Beck was misquoted since I watched his statement today, he was not making a reference to himself, but to all those around the world that supported Israel, which was a collective we.
A) That is not a good translation of the Hebrew. This is better. מֵעֵת הֱיוֹתָהּ, שָׁם אָנִי; וְעַתָּה, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה שְׁלָחַנִי--וְרוּחוֹ. {פ}
That is the way it is written in the Hebrew. The last word is ruach- spirit, and second to the last word is shalach-to send me...put it together you have:
16....and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit. טז. 17. So said the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you for your profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.
IN CONTEXT, the person speaking changes, this is something that Isaiah does on several occasions. And remember, in the original Isaiah, there are no verses and chapters, so it makes more contextual sense when you incluse verse 17. So, verse 16 is Isaiah speaking of himself...The LORD G-d has sent me (Isaiah) and his spirit (of prophecy).
B) Your rendering is also poor hermeneutics. A person must use passages in the light ie clear, to shed understanding on those that may not be so clear. At least a dozen times in Isaiah alone, G-d say he is alone, no other, no other savior. So, then why try to use a passage like 48:16 and twist the content to shoe-horn a meaning not there and create doctrine? If you simply take him at his word as you claim, you would rest upon the dozens of clear passsages where G-d says he is a perfect, solitary unity. ANY other attempt to create doctrine of a composite god stands against G-d.
I had to look that one up, didn't remember it, but I guess I took it as a shot at historical oddity, guess it could have been an attempt to introduce Mormon propaganda into the discussion.
Remember when during the Clinton administration they unearthed a very old body and it turned out to be caucasian. They covered the site and made a protected area to prevent any further excavation. Guess I assigned it to that category.
Another interesting note... I'm not a fan of KJV because of its obvious translation errors. I tend to use it posting here because of other FReepers reverence for it. I do that to keep the discussion theological rather than translational. I used it in my post to you out of habit. Sorry about that. The Catholic translations (i.e. Douay-Rheims) translated the passages correctly. Here is the excerpt:
16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time before it was done, I was there, and now the Lord God hath sent me, and his spirit.
This is reflected in the New Testament:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Yes, throughout Isaiah and other places God says we have no other savior. Yet, this passage makes it clear that there is more to the story. God swore by Himself that He would save His people, Israel. Such an oath has blessings for fulfillment and curse for not. In swearing this oath, He knew that He would die on the Cross to redeem mankind in a way that man could not do for himself. He accepted the curse of the oath on our behalf and became the sacrificial offering of the New Covenant.
By the way, the Hebraic writing was cool.
The revelation of G-ds nature and His law ended at Sinai. Any other revelation of G-ds nature would make G-d out to breaking His own Torah, a liar, changing His mind and his word untrustworthy...think about it! The Jewish nation trusted in the reliability of the word of G-d for 1,500 years after Sinai and then G-d changes the plan? All of the instances of G-d in the Tanach (OT) suddenly become Christophanies? Theophanies of a trinity? (G-d forbid). Progressive revelation of the church is heresy.
The yolk was lifted by Christ on the Cross. The Law of God is forever.
There is not one verse in all of Jewish Scripture (OT) that says that messiah will end the law or do it for us. Your view of the law is disgraceful. Read Psalm 119! 176 verses, the longest in the whole bible. The subject? THE BEAUTY OF THE LAW. Did David think the law was a curse? NO. He delighted in the law. He did the law to the best of his ability, out of LOVE OF G-D! To say the law is a curse, like the apostle Paul did, is to spit in the face of G-d. It is not yoke for a stiff necked people. It is a means of loving G-d, communing with G-d and repairing the world. Elevating the physical things of this world to the spiritual.
...however, Christ opened the eyes of the blind and told the lame to walk so that the Jewish people of His day would come to see that the Messiah had come. These were the things they were expecting.
No, miracles are NEVER specified as a means of identifying messiah ben David. What is? The ingathering of the exiles...World peace...Univeral knowlege of G-d..the restoration of the Davidic line..The rebuilding of the Temple...Restoration of the Priesthood and sacrifices...
The temple still stood at the time of Chrst, the world has become much more bloody including the inquisition, crusades, pogroms and the holocaust, collectively slaughtering millions of Jews, millions of non-Jews. The Jewish scriptures NEVER teach a second coming. No do-overs. No 2,000 year pause. It will be accomplished within one generation, one lifetime.
What kind of salvation do you mean? The Jewish people have long-awaited their Messiah... what would you do when you meet Him? Ignore Him because your faith is only in God? God is the One Who sends the Messiah for our salvation... how can there be salvation without faith in the One He sent?!
The Jewish people have ALWAYS had salvation through faith in HaShem..G-d, by his grace. or as we say chessed, kindness. There is NO NEED for a messiah savior. All men are responsible for their own sin (Ezek 18), we have means of forgiveness through prayer, repentance and others. Again, not ONE verse that says salvation comes through a faith in a messiah. Not one.
The Church thrives because our history is rooted in the promises to Abraham and it is unbroken.
On the contrary, the church broke it. The chruch thrives because it is a Grecco-Romanized form of Judaism. Gentiles are only required to keep the seven laws of Noah. The first of course being belief in the G-d of Abraham. The church makes it a 3-in-1 composite, with the son being a god-man, 100%man, 100%god, which actually puts humanity in the godhead. Heresy. A bi-natured god? 4 personalities? 3 divine and 1 non-divine? G-d forbid.
May God bless you. And you FRiend.
Typology as an intellectual method of studying written and redacted oral Jewish law. Jesus, who was raised in a kosher home, lived and died a Jew and had no intention of starting a new religion, learned and transmitted what was taught to him in the approach of his Jewish teachers.
Secular explication of secular literary texts as an approach to appreciation of the written word is an offshoot of biblical explication. None of this mixing and matching of words, moreover from translations of translations, is proof positive that God begat a Jewish man.
I respect your strong belief. Having grown up in an area with a very large and strong Catholic population, I deeply mourn the weakening of attendance and belief in the Catholic Church in America as evidenced by the wholesale closure of parishes and Catholic parochial schools. This phenomenon is weakening the fabric of society. Please extend the same feeling for your Jewish brethren as they, too, are accosted by the onslaught of secularists and religious fanatics who hate anyone who does not believe as they do.
Clearly this isn't the case! How many prophets came to bring God's Word to His people after Sinai? The Wisdom of Solomon opened many eyes to the revelation of God through his poetry and Proverbs. As of Sinai, the story had been written as far as Exodus... why continue writing if there is no further revelation? Your position here is completely illogical and ahistorical.
Progressive revelation of the church is heresy.
Progressive revelation, as discussed above, is the only way it's ever been done!
There is not one verse in all of Jewish Scripture (OT) that says that messiah will end the law or do it for us.
In the time of the Messiah, all sacrifices would end... except for one; the Todah (Praise and Thanksgiving) offering. This means that the sacrifices of the Mosaic Law do come to an end in Jewish understanding. At no time did I say one word against the Law of God, nor would I say a word against the Law of Moses. You simply fail to see the distinction. The Law of Moses is Deuteronomy ("Second Law"). Where the Law of God was given by God Himself, the failure of the Israelites to keep the Covenant brought about a separation wherein God instructed Moses to give the Law to the people. This Deuteronomy ("Second Law") was man's law through Moses, yet in doing God's Will for His people. It was given to the Israelites to raise them up and train them for holiness. Yes, it elevates the physical things of this world to the spiritual... it was given so that the Israelites would stop yearning for their Egyptian idols and truly worship God.
No, miracles are NEVER specified as a means of identifying messiah ben David. What is?
The ingathering of the exiles... Israel is God's first-born among the nations. The exiles include all of mankind reconciled to God through the New Covenant. Don't forget that one of the promises to Abraham was that all the world would be blessed through his line. The Evangelists, Matthew and Luke, go to great pains to show Christ's lineage back to Abraham so the Jews could recognize the fulfillment of this promise.
World peace... God and man are reconciled. As the angels sang at the birth of Christ... "and peace to men of good will on Earth." The peace of Christ is our rebirth to the family life of God... our restoration of our heavenly inheritance. You make the same mistake as Jesus's contemporaries who only saw the Messiah through temporal eyes. The great peace the world lacked was its division from our Heavenly Father.
Universal knowledge of G-d... This knowledge has come into the world. Yet, our conversation shows that not all are willing to grasp its nature. You say that there is no progressive revelation of God... and yet, we wouldn't have universal knowledge of God until the Messiah came. You said there is no further revelation since Sinai and yet here you reference further revelation. I hope you can recognize the inconsistency! This has occurred!
the restoration of the Davidic line... King David was promised an everlasting dynasty and an Heir Who will rule forever. The only One Who possibly fulfills this promise is the everlasting Christ the King. He is called "Son of David" for a reason!
The rebuilding of the Temple... At the time that Christ walked the Earth, the Temple had been rebuilt. We take it a step further, though. You have to recognize what the Temple represented... it represented the Cosmos to the Jewish people. It was a physical representation of all things, right up to the Holy of Holies, God's Throne. After Christ, the veil was torn and the Temple destroyed. There is a new Heaven and new Earth indwelt by the Holy Spirit promised of Christ to His Church.
Restoration of the Priesthood and sacrifices... Do I even need to comment on this one from the Catholic perspective?
You listed out some of the basic tenets of the Catholic faith. We recognize our ancestors in Faith in the Jews. Those who remain Jewish today have failed to recognize the fulfillment of these promises in Christ.
I disagree with you.
Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I respect your strong belief. Having grown up in an area with a very large and strong Catholic population, I deeply mourn the weakening of attendance and belief in the Catholic Church in America as evidenced by the wholesale closure of parishes and Catholic parochial schools. This phenomenon is weakening the fabric of society. Please extend the same feeling for your Jewish brethren as they, too, are accosted by the onslaught of secularists and religious fanatics who hate anyone who does not believe as they do.
Please do not take my posts here as any sign of disrespect. Rather, it is entirely the opposite. I wish that all of God's children could show the tenacity of the Jewish people in holding on to their ways. We see the revelations of God from a different perspective... but I respect the Jewish identity and will fight to keep you from a recurrence of the harms your people have suffered in history.
My dear FRiend... I didnt say the canon closed at Sinai. Or that that prophets didnt have important things to relate to mankind, in particular, the success and failures of the Jewish people. What I said was, G-ds nature and Law were completed at Sinai. The Prophets and Writings give us no new Law or no new understanding of G-ds nature, essense, being. And up until about 30AD, ALL readers of the Tanach (OT) had zero thought of G-d being anything but as described in the Tanach. Deut 4:15, having NO FORM...with a warning...do not give Him a form of anykind, whether on Earth or in Heaven...
Progressive revelation, as discussed above, is the only way it's ever been done!
Yes, however, did Adam believe in one G-d? Noah? Abraham? Moses..David..Hezekiah...all the way to Malachi. One G-d. No physical being. Yes, there has been a progressive revelation of Law. Not of G-ds nature or essence. That it is why I can say with the utmost truth...the nature and law of G-d did not change after Sinai.
Remember...this is important...it was a national revelation. Not a blinding experience of one man on the road to Damascus. The entire nation experienced it. Why? Because that is when G-d Almighty gave the law...revealed Himself...in writing and spoke to them out of the fire....once for all time, to the entire population. It would not be subject to believing one persons so-called "vision"...because ALL saw it and ALL heard it. Never again after that has there EVER been a national revelation. The words of the law were given for ALL TIME. NEVER to change, never to be overthrown by a "law of messiah". Not one scripture says so.
In the time of the Messiah, all sacrifices would end
Please provide scriptural evidence. If this were true, the Jewish people would have been told in the Tanach (OT). It doesnt exist.
At no time did I say one word against the Law of God, nor would I say a word against the Law of Moses.
You said: "The Mosaic Law of Deuteronomy was a yolk placed on a stiff-necked people for their reproof."
That is just not true. The law was given as I mentioned before... FOR THE JEWS (Gentiles only seven laws of Noah) to fulfill a relationship with G-d, be light unto the nations, repair a sick world, fulfills G-ds purpose on earth, elevate the physical to the spiritual.
You havent provided one scripture that says the Mosaic law will be discarded leaving only a law of G-d. As I pointed out before even outside the Torah, it is stated the law is forever. Ps 111 and others.
Yes, the Jewish people have blown it under the law and perverted it. That is the message of the prophets! Especially the minor prophets....They were reformers who warned the Jewish people...of the consequences and sure enough we got got exiled big-time. But never...ever is there a replacement theology. On the contrary!
Ezek 36:22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Likwise Isaiah Says:
2: 2 In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
And Jeremiah says:
19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, “ Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things.” 20 Will a man make gods for himself, Which are not gods? 21 “ Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know My hand and My might; And they shall know that My name is the LORD
My name is the LORD, in Hebrew, "yud hey vav hey" the unspeakable name of G-d. HaShem---The Name. Not Jesus...Not the son of G-d...not the Trinity. The entire world will know that "yud hay vav hey" is it. Nothing else. Fini.
Nice chatting you BTW...
Same here! I'm in my garage on my iPhone. Home time is family time. I'll pick this back up tomorrow. God bless you!
Nazis were not Christians. They were Pagans and hated Christianity and the church.
OTOH, Muslims and Muslim nations sided with Hitler against the Allies in WWII
You zealous but scripturally ignorant Roman Catholics are so predictable. Strain at a gnat and swllow a camel.
John 20:21 is given by Christ as an apostolic imperative. Simply stated, it was intended FOR the apostles of the Lord, but, as with all scripture, to us for our learning and study. Go ahead and perform some of the miracles Christ gave THEM power to do in those same passages: for THEM, not you nor your unholy father in Rome. 2Pet.3:15-16
2Tim.2:15
Part 2...
The exiled would be Jewish...no other peoples are described as such. People have always had access to G-d through the Jewish scriptures. Gentiles through the covenant of Noah. The Mosaic covenant for Jews (or those wishing to convert). Through the children of Abraham the Jewish Scriptures were written and the people of the world blessed through them.
Both Matthew and Lukes lineages are fatally flawed. Matthew has him coming through the cursed King Jeconiah, whose children were forbidden to ever sit on the throne of David and be King. Luke has him coming through Nathan and not Solomon. The Davidic line has to go through Solomon. So both are fatally flawed. Not to mention, Tribal affiliation ONLY comes through the father. If Jesus had no biological father, he could not have ANY tribal affiliation. He can not get it from his mother or through adoption by his father.
World peace... God and man are reconciled.
World peace means no more wars. Are you saying Abraham was not reconciled? Moses? David? Hezekiah? Are you saying G-d set us up to fail? Gave us original sin, free will and then an impossible law to follow thereby needing to kill his human son (himself)(Human sacrifice is forbidden) to make things right? From the time of Adam to Jesus...we had no chance...the game was rigged? Does that also mean that all our forefathers would have gone to hell?
No, we have always had the ability to reconcile with G-d. Repent of what is evil and do good. Ezek 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
You say that there is no progressive revelation of God... and yet, we wouldn't have universal knowledge of God until the Messiah came. You said there is no further revelation since Sinai and yet here you reference further revelation. I hope you can recognize the inconsistency!
NOOOO...NO further revelation of G-ds NATURE or essence. There are muzzies, Christians, Mormons, Hindus etc etc. Universal knowlege of G-d means these faulty belief systems are dispensed with. As I posted last time. The Gentiles will recognize the errors they have been taught and know that "yud hey vav hey " is G-d and the only G-d...no god the son...no god the HS. Not inconsistent!
the restoration of the Davidic line... King David was promised an everlasting dynasty and an Heir Who will rule forever.
And will never LACK A MAN to sit on the throne of Israel, not a single heir.
Jer 33:17 For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”
After Christ, the veil was torn and the Temple destroyed
There is no post biblical evidence of the veil being torn. Ezekiel 36 through 44 discusses the return of the Temple, Priesthood, Sacrifices. It is not metaphorical but real. Remember Isaiah 2:2
Restoration of the Priesthood and sacrifices... Do I even need to comment on this one from the Catholic perspective?
Well no...But suffice it to say A) Jesus can not be a priest. He is not of the tribe of Levi. He can not be a sacrifice...he is a human being.
[Deuteronomy 12:30-31] Take heed to thyself (Jewish people) that thou be not snared by following them (the pagans), after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Dont act like the pagans and do what is an abomination and what G-d hates! What is that? HUMAN SACRIFICE!
And we are expected to believe that G-d then says...Okay...I changed my mind...even though I forbid you from doing it...I will murder my own human son (actually kill myself, since I am him in the flesh)! I will then require you to believe it is okay! You are to believe JUST AS THE PAGANS that human sacrifice is effective....
NO! G-d forbid! G-d doesnt follow the ways of the pagans!
It seems that even among Christian scholars it’s admitted that the word ‘ecclesia” didn’t mean a “church” in the sense you are suggesting a new religion, but rather what it meant previously and later - a group that are called out to learn and pray.
http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm
The word for rock, Petra, is commonly believed to have been used at least partially or in its entirely to create the pun on the name Peter and I concede possibly to make a metaphor evoking the discarded rock that was chosen for the cornerstone of the first Holy Temple in Jerusalem. There is big debate among Christian scholars on exactly who or what the speaker means.
It’s consistent with the times that Jesus could have been starting a break-away congregation.
There’s an old self-deprecating joke that Jews tell. Two Jews get stranded on a desert Island. The have to fend for themselves and recreate the things that will make them feel at home. After many years, a seafaring crew finds the men and upon landing on shore see three buildings in a row and ask what the three buildings are.
The first man answers:
“The first building is the synagogue I built and attend because I like its approach to prayer. The second building is the one my neighbor built and the one he attends. The third building is the synagogue neither of would ever set foot in.”
In the Jewish tradition of religious debate and disputation, “both these and those are the words of the living Torah.”
That is the way I have always perceived it. I want to give the man from Nazareth the benefit of the doubt and say he was a reformer. His criticisms of the Jewish leadership is not that different than those of the prophets.
I dont think he meant to start a new religion either. It is somewhat difficult to say since he did not write one word of his own teaching. Which to me is odd, frankly since his is "god-in-the-flesh". So, if G-d was going to start a new religion, wouldnt he at least write it in his own hand? If HaShem could write it on stone at Sinai....He could easily do so 1500 years later when scrolls exist right?
They tell me Mohammed (PBUH) went to heaven too... And he got to bring his HORSE! There sure are a lot of little godlings around promising salvation. Let’s make sure we never take the Lord’s actual, firsthand commandments too seriously, shall we? Perhaps Saul of Tarsus can clarify the matter... Or some other mortal. Maybe you? Or are you a Messenger, too?
What relevance does this have to the conversation?
Bear with me. I want to respond to you but it’s going to take time to do your challenge justice. I am having to do a great deal more research because I am limited to the Old Testament in my appeals to authority with you. It is much easier to handle challenges from fellow Christians from differing traditions because at least we have the New Testament in common where all of this is easily explained.
Out of respect, I don’t want to just give you a simple, slip-shod answer.
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