Posted on 02/11/2011 8:09:19 AM PST by pillut48
Mubarak has stepped down, per a short statement from Vice President Suleiman. Crowds going wild in the streets.
How long until Obama takes credit for this???
“The Flying Wallendas were pretty fearless”
Oh really? That is interesting...who are The Flying Wallendas? You know not to answer that, right?
i am still waiting to hear what FACTS you have with respect to which secular democratic party/movement is capable of stepping up to lead in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood is in place, organized and ready to go. Who, FACTUALLY, do you look to to challenge them? name one such organization. there is none.
Why would we want that? Our own government right now is being run by radical socialists and communists. We've lost more liberties in the last two years than any time in American history. My God - don't ask them to get even more involved! They're the ones who are already over there fueling the "crises" that will eventually end in an attack on Israel and WWIII. You want THEM in charge?????
Egyptian Army Supreme Council Statement now on Al-Jezeera.
The Army is “Studying” the issue of leading the Country.
“I am a lawyer. I live in a pragmatic world of law and facts. Pragmatic concern based on facts are what my viewpoint here is based on, not on unrealistic hopes and feel good wishes.”
Oh God!!! No wonder you cannot understand...;) just kidding. You don’t have many facts that can be really called facts...
We can see on tv that the people are not chanting islamic sayings or waiving marxist flags...those are facts. We also know that the people did not resort to violence...that is a fact. We also know that Christian Egyptians supported them...remember the recent news and photos of Christians surrounding the praying muslim protesters making a human chain around them to protect them from government supporting thugs? Those are facts dear. Also, it is a fact that people prefer to be free and not ruled over by tyranny. So, you can present like others, other peoples opinions and fears if you like. I prefer actual facts.
Which is all very good if you're talking about Americans .. maybe even Europeans or Western societies, in general. However, with people in countries with no history or tradition of liberty, much less equality or freedom, I believe that the record will show that you're expecting .. and hoping for .. far too much. They have nothing to build anything on except the shifting sands inherent in the precepts of 11th century Islam, which is not something that gives much hope for any degree of enlightenment.
I appreciate your sense of optimism, really I do. But the people cheering in the streets on Cairo have no foundation for freedom. The leaders of the opposition in Egypt are not disciples of Locke or Hobbes or Madison. They are not Christians who are taught grace, peace and forgiveness. Egypt has grown more strongly Islamist in the last several decades. They are more adherent to a religion that teaches hate, violence and repression than ever before.
Look at Turkey. The Islamists disguised themselves as moderates until they won a majority. Now the women are covered and their friendship with Israel has turned to open hostility.
The men who created our Constitution were Christian, educated and self supporting. They were farmers, lawyers and merchants who understood economics.
Who are their equivalents in Egypt? Elbaradai is a career U.N. diplomat in the pay of Iran. The Muslim Brotherhood is led by men who if they are educated have degrees in Islam, not engineering.
I pray you are right, that the people of Egypt can seize democracy and rule wisely, but the weight of history stands against you.
“i am still waiting to hear what FACTS you have with respect to which secular democratic party/movement is capable of stepping up to lead in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood is in place, organized and ready to go. Who, FACTUALLY, do you look to to challenge them? name one such organization. there is none.”
What fact do you have that the Muslim Brotherhood has control of this movement? None, cause there is none. These people did not revolt to become slaves, that is a fact. Now, there is a chance that the muslims will take over, or the communists, or whoever. Someone will, but have a little faith that people want to live free, prosperous lives. Why the hell do you think Iran is cutting off news reports to it’s people about this? BTW, the military is in power now, they are secular...appear to be supportive of freedom and democracy. That is your organization to focus on for a few minutes...there are not guarantees that fanatics will not take over this movement, it happens...but it is the ONLY chance we have of avoiding true mass destruction from islamic fanaticism in the future.
Try discerning this...do you really prefer a people live under oppressive tyranny so you can feel an illusion of safety, or would you risk for people being free? That is really the relevancy here.
Dear, the fact is these people have never experienced an election, have no political parties, do not have a clue about democracy and no secular democratic force is extant in Egypt. Those are my facts. I continue to wait for you to provide proof that there is a secular democratic force ready to step up to lead Egypt. I continue to wait because there is no such force for you to point to. doesn’t exist.
You can continue to feel good about the fact that Egyptian flags are being waved, i suppose.
none, because I didn't say that. I said the Muslim Brotherhood is organized and ready to go, unlike the nonexistent secular democratic force that I have been waiting for you to point to as the potential leader for the Egyptian people. Nature abhors a vacuum.
oh ok, so the status quo minus Mubarak then. because the military has always been in control.
I don’t believe the weight of history is against me...the middle east governments have been moderating over all. But, even if you do not think so...just think Iraq in terms of a Middle East country desiring freedom and succeeding at it.
One does not have to know Locke, Jefferson, or anyone to understand the benefits of liberty. God gave that to each and everyone of us. Each individual in this world has the right to be free...and those who believe that people do not want to be free are misguided I believe.
“oh ok, so the status quo minus Mubarak then. because the military has always been in control.”
This is not the status quo...that is why you are fearful...
Allegra, if you have time, would you mind giving me your views on the situation in Egypt on this thread?
“none, because I didn’t say that. I said the Muslim Brotherhood is organized and ready to go, unlike the nonexistent secular democratic force that I have been waiting for you to point to as the potential leader for the Egyptian people. Nature abhors a vacuum.”
There isn’t a vacuum now...the military is an organization that is secular, and appears to be supportive of democracy that is in power now and has promised to provide stability and allow free elections. It is going well so far...
You are entitled to your opinion and I will not comment further. By supporting the “democratic uprising” movement,you are complicit in the murder of untold thousands after the muslim brotherhood consolidate their power. Like Jimmy Carter, your hands will be covered with innocent blood.
And the last time the military was in power in Egypt, we got Nasser, then Sadat, and finally Mubarak, all military or ex-military ... hardly indicative of a tendency toward freedom and democracy.
The scorecard reads: Nasser - no friend of the United States and two wars with Israel ..
Sadat - one war with Israel and a borderline personality as far as being pro-Western, and assassinated by the Moslem Brotherhood ..
And, finally, Mubarak - reasonably pro-American and with a history of live-and-let-live with Israel, the "despot" whose fall youre so gleefully celebrating.
And now the cycle can begin again ...
It's a wonder that Mubarak, as he was leaving, didn't remark "“Après moi le déluge”.
Blue ink...on index fingers
The democracy in Iraq only extends to the range of American M-16s. They took a year to form their new government and had to compromise with Iran’s puppet Al Sadr. You need to find a better example.
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