Mohler takes on 'theistic evolution'

Evos go from objective and science to subjective and philosophical faster than you can say *origins*.

"No. The kinetic energy stored in the ice atop mount Everest renders a reduction in the local systemic entropy relative to the water localized in the Indian Ocean. There is a measurable systemic differential."

So are you saying that ice atop Mt. Everest has a higher entropy and a higher energy than water at sea-level?

Hi, A-G, blessed sister in Christ. If from our coordinates, the earth is ~15 billion years old, and if the “days” of creation had man created on the 6th day before God’s rest, then at approximately what time frame does that place the creation of man from our coordinates, given it was the 6th day from God’s. (If I’ve phrased that question wrong, then please correct me.)

Nonetheless, from your theory, answering the objection of Albert Mohler, there is absolutely zero necessity to rid ourselves of a first Adam, a fall, and the necessity of a Savior.

Do I have that correct? Your theory does not trample on the fact of a unique Fall committed by Adam.

Like a drop of water skeediddling on a hot griddle.

What does Wisdom look like?

Psychological experiments say purple suggests wisdom. What does it look like to you, or do you suffer from wisdom-color-blindness?

What are the Spiritual senses? If they can be enumerated? Just wondering.

Truth and Beauty. Those I am almost certain of.

Modesty/Shame?

“Fear of God”, that’s a certainty.

The ability to order time? That is to make sense of time, to understand the difference between past and future? I’m somewhat ashamed to say I’m really very ignorant and unlearned in these matters.

Psychological experiments say purple suggests wisdom

You either didn't read my question carefully or you didn't understand it: I asked you what does Wisdom look like—not what "suggests" it. You said one can see Wisdom, so please tell us what does it look like.

And while you are at it, please site these (in)famous psychological experiments—when they were made, by whom, have they been repeated, how were they defined and controlled, the sample size, statistical analysis, probability, chi values, the works. Thank you in advance.

cite.

blue

cite.

Yes, thank you. I guess you are paying attention to context (but the FR spell checker isn't). :)

That said, I sure hope you have more to offer than a typing correction...

blue

Blue what?

purple

/cite

Thanks very much for your reply:

The only problem I can see is in defining what ‘randomness’ is, and both of us share even that.

Yes, but the fact that there is this problem is a major part of my point. :)

As I noted before one cannot determine if a number is random by looking at it. And, a number can be random to you, but not to me.

The same can be said for events. Random, in one usage, means "Having no definite aim or purpose," however "purpose" in the scientific sense is not really a valid term. In pure science, things/events just are and just do what they do; science describes these - provided they can be reduced to the methodology required of science.

And "having no aim or purpose" is at least a level outside pure science. It's akin to asking "what does it mean..."

I think it safe to say that science knows or assumes the universe is not completely random. (Because matter, space and energy follow certain consistent patterns.) If we cannot know, scientifically, what is random, then how can we know that it exists at all? The most science can say is: having no aim or purpose thus far detected using science."

My main point, again, is that parts of the discussion of, I would say the most important parts, are outside the capacity of science to know.

Apologies, left off a word. Last sentence should have been:

"parts of the discussion of evolution,…

LOLOL!

[So are you saying that ice atop Mt. Everest has a higher entropy and a higher energy than water at sea-level? ]

Lower entropy, higher energy.

Thank you so much for your reply, dear brother in Christ, and your follow-up question!

Nonetheless, from your theory, answering the objection of Albert Mohler, there is absolutely zero necessity to rid ourselves of a first Adam, a fall, and the necessity of a Savior.

Do I have that correct? Your theory does not trample on the fact of a unique Fall committed by Adam.

Yes, you have that correct. My theory does not trample on the fact of a unique Fall committed by Adam.

At our present space/time coordinates, the universe is observed to be about 15 billion years old. However, when we consider the inflationary model and general relativity (warping of space/time) - we can also see that the universe is about a week old (equiv earth time) at the inception space/time coordinates (Schroeder et al.)

I also perceive this change of "observer" perspective in Scripture.

More specifically, Genesis chapters 1 to 3 are from the inception perspective. The Creator is the only observer of Creation ex nihilo and He speaks to both the physical and the spiritual as the Creation, the earthly and the heavenly. To presuppose an earthly space/time perspective would result in needless contradiction such as plants on Day 3 before the sun and solar system on Day 4 (emphasis mine:)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Genesis 1:1

These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. – Genesis 2:4-5

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. - Hebrews 11:3

Indeed, I perceive the creation of Adam and the Garden of Eden in the spiritual realm and thus see no contradiction at all in Genesis 1 to 3. The tree of life is in the middle of the Garden of Eden and Paradise (see below) and therefore not strictly physical.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. – Genesis 2:9

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. – Revelation 2:7

I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began. Or to put it another way, I do not perceive Adam as strictly physical.

At the top of Genesis 4, after Adam is banished to mortality, the perspective changes to Adamic man, to our space/time coordinates. Adam's clock starts ticking.

The first indication of the change in observer perspective is in the curse itself (emphasis mine)

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [literally, muwth muwth or “death death”]. – Genesis 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

That is not some vague reference but is explicitly revealed here:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. – 2 Peter 3:8

That is also the Jewish interpretation (Sanhedrin 97a; Avodah Zarah Sa) of Psalms 90:4:

For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

Adam was not made for a mere physical existence like a bacteria, daffodil, fish or cow. He doesn’t “belong” in the physical realm and he knows it. But because he was banished to mortality, this peculiar creature made for Paradise/Eden, having immortality at his finger tips, now is grounded in the physical universe whose life forms were his to name.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. – Genesis 2:19

Death entered the world because of Adam, not just physical death but muwth muwth – death death (Gen 2:17) - not just the death of his physical body, but the death of his living soul.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Romans 5:12

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

Adam, by Jewish and early Christian beliefs, was appointed a week (corresponding to Creation week) - or seven thousand years, the last of which is Christ's thousand year reign on earth, the Lord's Sabbath (Revelation.) The Sabbath is also prophecy:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

To illustrate that it was an early Christian belief, I offer the first excerpt below from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5 which is not part of the canon and is not to be confused with the late sixteenth century Islamic fraud, “The Gospel of Barnabas.”

The Epistle of Barnabas dates back to the first few centuries after Christ’s resurrection. It is quoted by Clement of Alexandria and also mentioned by Origen. It was part of the Codex Sinaiticus but is not part of the Catholic canon today. Nevertheless, it reveals the discernment of these early Christians.

He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of the Creation, "And God made in six days the works of His hands and on the seventh day He made an end, and He rested on the seventh day, and He sanctified it. Consider, my children what this signifies: That He made an end in six days. The meaning of it is this: that in six thousand years the Creator will bring all things to an end, for with Him one day is a thousand years. He Himself testifies, saying, Behold the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, all things shall be accomplished. And He rested on the seventh day: He means this, that when His Son shall come He will destroy the season of the wicked one, and will judge the godless, and will change the sun and the moon and the stars, and then He will truly rest on the seventh day.

It is also recorded in the first verse, chapter 33 of 2 Enoch which is the Slavic version of that book (also not part of the canon) but nevertheless showing the beliefs of early Christians:

And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that (the first seven) revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

In sum, the Jewish mystics and these early Christians (and I) perceive that Adamic man, upon being banished to mortality, was appointed a total of 7 days or 7,000 years. The last day of the week, the Sabbath, in the Christian view is Christ’s millennial reign on earth.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. – Revelation 20:4-6

And again,

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple. But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. – Matt 12:5-8

So there you have it, dear brother in Christ. My understanding of the matter does not at all conflict with Adam’s role in the Fall and it is not at odds with physics or physical cosmology.

God’s Name is I AM.

In other words you have nothing, zero, zilch, nada. Good bye.

My theory does not trample on the fact of a unique Fall committed by Adam

The fall of Adam is a "fact"?

I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began. Or to put it another way, I do not perceive Adam as strictly physical.

This one is a keeper. I wonder if you will deny that this is thoroughly Gnostic and that is is not the first time your alleged Christianity takes you there.

Adam was not made for a mere physical existence like a bacteria, daffodil, fish or cow. He doesn’t “belong” in the physical realm and he knows it. But because he was banished to mortality, this peculiar creature made for Paradise/Eden, having immortality at his finger tips, now is grounded in the physical universe whose life forms were his to name

If I remember correctly, he was also asked to pick one of those (animal) life forms as his comforter or companion...But your theory just keeps getting more and more Gnostic. In fact it is Gnostic: humans are preformed spirits who were punished and fell to the earth encased in a bodily prison.

Death entered the world because of Adam, not just physical death but muwth muwth – death death (Gen 2:17) - not just the death of his physical body, but the death of his living soul.

Christianity believes the soul is immortal (given that it is God's own breath).

The Epistle of Barnabas dates back to the first few centuries after Christ’s resurrection. It is quoted by Clement of Alexandria and also mentioned by Origen. It was part of the Codex Sinaiticus but is not part of the Catholic canon today. Nevertheless, it reveals the discernment of these early Christians...It is also recorded in the first verse, chapter 33 of 2 Enoch which is the Slavic version of that book (also not part of the canon) but nevertheless showing the beliefs of early Christians

Some early Christian, AG, only some, not all. Christian groups were totally heterodox in their beliefs and praxis.

In sum, the Jewish mystics and these early Christians (and I) perceive that Adamic man, upon being banished to mortality, was appointed a total of 7 days or 7,000 years. The last day of the week, the Sabbath, in the Christian view is Christ’s millennial reign on earth.

Let me, for the record, get this right: do you claim that the earth is less than 7,000 years old?

The fall of Adam is a "fact"?

Yes.

Let me, for the record, get this right: do you claim that the earth is less than 7,000 years old?

The universe is approximately 7 days old (equiv earth days) at the inception space/time coordinates and the universe is approximately 15 billion years old at our space/time coordinates.. This is based on Relativity and the Inflationary Model.

For more, read Jewish Physicist Gerald Schroeder's article on the Age of the Universe.

The earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old at its space/time coordinates.

On the rest of it, I could care less if you think I am gnostic or whatever.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27

And again,

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

God's Name is I AM.