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Physics: Proton radius smaller than believed, European scientists say
LA Times ^ | July 7, 2010 | Thomas H. Maugh II

Posted on 07/07/2010 9:06:34 PM PDT by smokingfrog

Sophisticated measurements from experiments indicate the radius is 4% smaller than thought. If true, the finding could have major ramifications for the standard model used in modern physics.

Physicists might have to rethink what they know about, well, everything.

European researchers dropped a potential bombshell on their colleagues around the world Wednesday by reporting that sophisticated new measurements indicate the radius of the proton is 4% smaller than previously believed.

In a world where measurements out to a dozen or more decimal places are routine, a 4% difference in this subatomic particle — found in every atom's nucleus — is phenomenally large, and the finding has left theoreticians scratching their heads in wonderment and confusion.

If the startling results are confirmed, a possibility that at least some physicists think is unlikely because the calculations involved are so difficult, they could have major ramifications for the so-called standard model on which most modern physics is based.

In an editorial accompanying the report in the journal Nature, physicist Jeff Flowers of the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington, England, said there were three possibilities: Either the experimenters have made a mistake, the calculations used in determining the size of the proton are wrong or, potentially most exciting and disturbing, the standard model has some kind of problem.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: physics; proton; protonradius; protons; science; standardmodel; stringtheory
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To: smokingfrog

I know what those are. :-)


101 posted on 07/09/2010 12:42:34 AM PDT by NucSubs ( Cognitive dissonance: Conflict or anxiety resulting from inconsistency between beliefs and actions)
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To: dangus

Vuvuzela go down the Holllle.


102 posted on 07/09/2010 4:19:43 PM PDT by BiteYourSelf (It's time for An-iman-iacs)
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To: smokingfrog; SunkenCiv; neverdem

I do not think that the QED is wrong. The radius of the proton is not derived from first principles, it has to be measured experimentally as it is not clear what the “proton density” is. We have no description of the orbits of quarks.


103 posted on 07/10/2010 1:32:45 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith

Sorry, proton density => proton radius


104 posted on 07/10/2010 1:33:59 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: SunkenCiv

Thanks for the ping. This is big.


105 posted on 07/10/2010 5:19:28 AM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost

For being so small, it is big! ;’)


106 posted on 07/10/2010 11:22:09 AM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: AdmSmith

It’s a feynmann, er, fine mess they’ve gotten themselves in.


107 posted on 07/10/2010 11:22:53 AM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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Ernest Lawrence, a pure experimentalist... said, "Don't you worry about it -- the theorists will find a way to make them all the same." -- Alvarez by Luis Alvarez (page 184)

I must reiterate my feeling that experimentalists always welcome the suggestions of the theorists. But the present situation is ridiculous... In my considered opinion the peer review system, in which proposals rather than proposers are reviewed, is the greatest disaster to be visited upon the scientific community in this century. No group of peers would have approved my building the 72-inch bubble chamber. Even Ernest Lawrence told me that he thought I was making a big mistake. He supported me because my track record was good. I believe U.S. science could recover from the stultifying effects of decades of misguided peer reviewing if we returned to the tried-and-true method of evaluating experimenters rather than experimental proposals. Many people will say that my ideas are elitist, and I certainly agree. The alternative is the egalitarianism that we now practice and that I've seen nearly kill basic science in the USSR and in the People's Republic of China. -- ibid (pp 200-201)

108 posted on 07/10/2010 11:27:03 AM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: SunkenCiv

The fundamental assumptions of spectroscopy, QED, QCD, are in question. I like scientists. :)


109 posted on 07/10/2010 11:32:38 AM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost

Actual scientists disagreeing, it’s great. :)


110 posted on 07/10/2010 11:44:57 AM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost
The fundamental assumptions of spectroscopy, QED, QCD, are in question.

No, that is not the case.
111 posted on 07/10/2010 11:58:53 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith
Yes it is. The volume of proton variation here makes ‘things not work’.
112 posted on 07/10/2010 12:03:28 PM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost

What do you mean? Please describe what fundamental assumption you are referring to so I can give you an answer.


113 posted on 07/10/2010 12:09:18 PM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith

%4 is huge when measuring the wavelength. Circa 1888 was the initial formula. It makes things ‘not fit’.


114 posted on 07/10/2010 12:17:43 PM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost

The Rydberg constant http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RydbergConstant.html has nothing to do with the radius of the proton. It is calculated from the electron mass, the proton mass, the electron charge, the speed of light, the permittivity of free space, and the Planck´s constant,


115 posted on 07/10/2010 12:29:48 PM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: AdmSmith

Every single “assumption” needs to be measured at this point. Do You disagree?


116 posted on 07/10/2010 12:37:52 PM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost

Sorry, I do not understand your question. You must be more specific, otherwise I can not answer. You may follow the links at the bottom of my about page to get an update on the present status of physics.


117 posted on 07/10/2010 1:50:32 PM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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To: UCANSEE2
Why do people believe the Earth is round?

That's easy. God told us in Isaiah 40.

118 posted on 07/10/2010 5:00:56 PM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch (...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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To: allmost
An article in the SciAm http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=proton-shrinks-in-size

Some have the impression that this will have consequences for the theories, but in my opinion that is a misinterpretation of this experiment, QED is still valid. However, scientific theories are valid until proven wrong, then we have to change the theories to get a better description.

119 posted on 07/11/2010 6:40:30 AM PDT by AdmSmith (GCTGATATGTCTATGATTACTCAT)
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