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Vets decry removal of flags
The Tampa Tribune ^ | August 3, 2009 | Jose Patino Girona

Posted on 08/03/2009 4:13:21 AM PDT by Brandonmark

City Manager Bill Horne didn't think taking down Old Glory at a few city properties would be a big deal.

He was wrong.

Several weeks ago, city workers started removing American flags from city properties. In all, 13 of the city's 50 flags came down, according to Mayor Frank Hibbard.

But the cost-cutting measure has sparked outrage, especially among veterans groups, prompting city leaders to revisit the decision at a workshop this morning.

"It's a knock at our country," said John Smith, canteen manager at the Hercules VFW Post 2473. "It's the only city in the United States that has done this. It's unreal. What are kids going to think?

"You remove the flag, you are removing our freedom," said Smith, a Vietnam veteran. "That is what it comes down to."

For city leaders, the move is about money, not patriotism. Like other local governments, Clearwater is trimming expenses, amid falling property tax revenues. Flying fewer flags means the city won't have to spend as much to replace, light and maintain them.

"This is reducing the number of flags," Horne said. "This is not changing our nationality. It is not doing something unpatriotic."

The flags will keep flying at city hall, the administrative services building, city ballparks, police and fire stations, Horne said. But they have been removed from less visible locations, such as a city maintenance building and the city's nursery, which are only used by workers.

The flag is also missing from a more visible location, though: the Memorial Causeway Bridge, where a memorial pays tribute to veterans from both world wars. The city removed the flag and the flagpole after drivers complained that the light that lit the flag at night was impairing visibility. The city is looking at how to fix the lighting, Horne said.

Hibbard said he can understand removing some of the flags, but he objects to taking down the flag at the memorial. A flag will be returned there, he said.

"This is an example of the fact that we are looking at literally everything. Nothing's off the table," the mayor said. "At the same time, you can't get too zealous and perhaps change the character of your community."

Critics also question the way the decision was made to remove the flags. Despite the passions that often surround where and how the American flag is flown, city staff members made the decision without consulting city council members or asking local veterans groups for help maintaining the flags.

Now, the issue is reverberating outside Clearwater.

"It has now become a Pinellas County veterans' issue," said Scott Barber, senior vice commander of VFW Post 10094 in Indian Rocks Beach. "Everybody in the county wants to see that city overturn that decision and put the flags back up."

Taking down a few flags didn't seem controversial, though, to Horne, who said he makes controversial decisions every day.

Because this morning's meeting is a workshop, council members won't be voting on the flag issue, but they could give direction to staff, Horne said. That could mean putting back the flags, putting back some of them or backing the decision to take them down.

If the council agrees that a flag should be removed, its flagpole also will be taken down, Horne said. He didn't know how much that would cost.

Another question is how much it would cost to put back the flagpole at the Memorial Causeway memorial if council members decide to do that.

"This discussion is going to drive what happens next," Horne said.

Today's workshop is set for 9 a.m. at Clearwater City Hall, 112 S. Osceola Ave.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: budget; clearwater; flag; oldglory; veterans; vfw
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To: Brandonmark

Can’t have vets help with flag maintenance — the city employees union will scream.


21 posted on 08/03/2009 7:13:56 AM PDT by randog (Tap into America!)
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To: Brandonmark

If they really want to save money, couldn’t they lower the flags at night. I’m sure the Boy Scouts or VFW could be scheduled to do this. They’d save electricity and wear and tear on the fabric. But to completely remove the flag is an obamanation!


22 posted on 08/03/2009 7:15:54 AM PDT by MSSC6644 (Defeat Satan. Pray the Rosary)
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To: Brandonmark
City Manager Bill Horne didn't think taking down Old Glory at a few city properties would be a big deal. He was wrong.

Is Bill a Democrat?

23 posted on 08/03/2009 7:25:23 AM PDT by cricket ('Don't bow for me . . Obama ' (America's 'sorrCDC STOPS DEATH COUNT...y' President))
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To: Brandonmark
If you can read these lyrics, thank a Vet!

“...On the shore dimly seen thro’ the mists of the deep
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the the stream:
‘Tis the star-spangled banner: O, long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!”

-Francis Scott Key,1814

24 posted on 08/03/2009 7:38:25 AM PDT by 444Flyer (The Lord is a warrior, the Lord is His name.-Exodus 15:3)
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To: Brandonmark

25 posted on 08/03/2009 7:46:52 AM PDT by 444Flyer (The Lord is a warrior, the Lord is His name.-Exodus 15:3)
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To: trooprally

Darn them anyway!

Maybe a flag in an enclosed area...but then again those workers might need the MOST reminding of their need to work for the people and constitution.

Can’t believe staff did not see this coming! All illegals, and not “citizens” working there too?


26 posted on 08/03/2009 7:52:27 AM PDT by 3D-JOY
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To: Brandonmark

It’d be one thing if they were taking down the flags because they wanted to use the money to help a struggling VA hospital, that would be a move that shows some real guts.

I doubt that cost savings is going to go anywhere that will make us proud. It’ll probably pay the salary of some bureaucrat at the department of ‘finding stupid ways to save a nickel’


27 posted on 08/03/2009 8:09:53 AM PDT by RogerAdams
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To: Brandonmark

I thought the City Council didn’t now the flags were being removed. That’s what was reported when this story originally broke.

Poor journalism or lying politicians?


28 posted on 08/03/2009 8:33:19 AM PDT by Brytani (DC Freeper Convention and National Tea Party - FreepMail Me for rooms and convention info!)
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To: Blue Jays
Find someplace else to save a few measly pennies, you unpatriotic turd.

I agree with the first half of the statement and disagree with the second.

Personally, I would like to fly a flag at my home but I'm too busy to properly do it, so I don't. But that does not make me an unpatriotic turd. Of course I'm not a govt. entity either. Still, I think the last part of your statement is over the top.

29 posted on 08/03/2009 8:52:18 AM PDT by staytrue
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To: staytrue
The flags are already there. They're flown everyday.
City Manager Horne wants to remove that daily procedure.
That makes him an unpatriotic turd.
30 posted on 08/03/2009 8:57:52 AM PDT by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Brandonmark
Flying fewer flags means the city won't have to spend as much to replace, light and maintain them.

How about putting them up at open of business and taking them down at end of business. Then you don't need lighting and the flags will last longer.

31 posted on 08/03/2009 9:17:09 AM PDT by hattend (Thank You, Sarah. We Alaskans will miss you.)
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To: Brytani

I think the original story said the Mayor didn’t know about it.


32 posted on 08/03/2009 9:20:29 AM PDT by hattend (Thank You, Sarah. We Alaskans will miss you.)
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To: Brandonmark

13 of ‘em? Is that a sign?


33 posted on 08/03/2009 9:41:43 AM PDT by I Hate Obama ("Life Is Like A Box of Chocolates, You Never Know What You're Gonna Get." -Forest Gump)
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To: Brandonmark

13 out of 50 is not what was said yesterday. They were saying all of them were going down. I think the Vets should start a fund that will pay for the 13 flags and then both side gets what they want. There are many veteran’s organizations that will contribute to this. Easy solution. I should run for some office.../sarc.


34 posted on 08/03/2009 10:03:23 AM PDT by napscoordinator
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To: Brandonmark
What a cluster flop. This will end up costing them far more in the long run than if they just let things alone in the first place. Taking down a flagpole from a memorial is just plain stupid. If that is an example of the City Manager's judgment, then they need a new city manager.

It is a great example, though, of the typical bureaucratic process. Coming to a doctor's office near you.

35 posted on 08/03/2009 10:06:30 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (if the government makes trading a used car this hard how are they going to handle a doctor visit?)
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To: hattend; Brytani
I think the original story said the Mayor didn’t know about it.

No, that was my reporting based on word I received.

36 posted on 08/03/2009 10:10:32 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (if the government makes trading a used car this hard how are they going to handle a doctor visit?)
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To: NonValueAdded

I think this was done to rattle the taxpayers; not to save money. After all, if they wanted to save money, they would not actively remove the flagpoles. This is the City Manager having a conniption fit and wanting the taxpayers to notice. It is a “look what you made me do” moment.


37 posted on 08/03/2009 10:16:45 AM PDT by 6SJ7 (atlasShruggedInd: ON)
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To: cricket

Bill Horne was appointed by the City Council to serve as the Chief Administrative Officer of the city with responsibility for all departments except the City Attorney's Office. He is one of only two employees who reports directly to the Council. He is directly responsible for 1,846.5 employees and accountable for the annual operating and capital budget of $375 million.

With a wealth of management experience in dynamic and fast paced environments, Bill came to Clearwater in 1998 as the General Support Services Administrator. Prior to that, he served as a Colonel in the United States Air Force. Bill earned his Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from the University of Tulsa, a Masters in Human Resources Management from Pepperdine University, and a Masters in Political Science from Auburn University.

In September 2005, Bill was designated a Credentialed Manager by the International City County Manager Association (ICMA).

38 posted on 08/03/2009 10:20:39 AM PDT by hattend (Thank You, Sarah. We Alaskans will miss you.)
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To: Vaquero

No money to fly the flags (how much is that anyway), but they have enough money to take down the poles?


39 posted on 08/03/2009 1:42:30 PM PDT by Z80_Inside
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To: Brandonmark

Clearwater officials reverse decision to remove flags!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2307401/posts


40 posted on 08/03/2009 2:15:28 PM PDT by Brandonmark (News Coverage)
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