Did Obama Order George Tiller's Murder? (Article about FreeRepublic Alert)

Bliefnet ^ | June 1, 2009 | Steven Waldman

[Zakeet]

I'm wary of drawing too many lessons from anonymous message board comments. One could certainly pluck comments from Beliefnet's boards to prove that we harbor either right wing or left wing extremists.

But it's worth perusing the message boards of FreeRepublic, a conservative community, to gauge the general mood of the most hardcore conservatives.

First, quite a few people are saying that murder is wrong, no matter how evil the victim was.

SnakeDoc:
Thou Shalt Not Murder. Both the shooter and the victim will be judged.

Patriot preacher:
Pro-lifers should condemn this as antithetical to their philosophy and beliefs. Hopefully, the perpetrator will be apprehended and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I will shed no tears that Teller is gone -- but MURDER is MURDER.

Then a large group is making a more practical argument that this was bad because it will backfire. In fact, a startling large number believe Tiller was murdered by Obama or pro-choice allies in order to justify a crackdown on guns or civil liberties:

upchuck:
This serial-killer piece of excrement will be held up by every abortionist and every lover of abortionists as the reason why the Secret Service needs to be assigned to guard every abortionist,every abortion mill and every lover of abortions in this country.

gridlock:
Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society. I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that...

jazminerose:
Will form the rationalization for really stomping on pro life groups. Was it one of BO's storm troopers who pulled the trigger?

Then there's a large number of people who flat-out applaud the killing. I'm going to print a lot of them because it's really unfair to pluck a few extreme quotes off any websites message boards. What's amazing is the sheer volulme of people thinking this way:

imahawk:
One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

Turret Gunner A20:
Hope the guy gets away....Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don't say that the question has no relevance -- this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.

calico_thompson:
Well, at least the perp didn't rip his arms and legs off and then suck his brains out.

Gaffer:
No doubt this 'man' is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his 'passing' is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don't know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.

TheDuke:
But, wasn't this just another late term abortion(?)

Slump Tester:
It's too bad the suspect didn't poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.

SampleMan:
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer. In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery. Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.

babygene:
killing to prevent a serial killer from claiming his next victim probably doesn't fit into the category of murder...

Cheetahcat:
Nothing to see here just his last abortion this one many trimesters Post Birth.

Ahithophel:
He will till no more in the bloody garden of evisceration.

UnwashedPeasant:
What kind of "church" was this? The Wright kind?

steve86:
I guess the allies should not have killed a single Nazi soldier in WWII?

eccentric:
It is not murder to kill someone to save someone else's life.

353FMG:
The shooter had to kill in order to save the lives of numerous future children. If the shooter is considered a murderer, then so are our brave soldiers. They (the soldiers) have to kill in order to save our lives from the constant threat of terrorism.

mrsmel:
It's too bad, when murderers on the left who really did target innocent people are rewarded and lauded. This man Tiller was responsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent babies, and we are supposed to be shame-faced that someone stopped him in his tracks from jabbing scissors into yet another babies' head and sucking their life out.

and from another thread:

Canedawg:
i wouldnt feel too badly if some of the communists in our govt met a similar fate. That doesnt mean i am about to go around killing anyone, but if someone else does the deed, i wont be crying over the tainted blood of treasonous actors and infanticiders.

Glenn:
How about rejoicing for all the children this "Doctor" will not murder now?

Flintlock:
I tried to get upset about this.
I failed.
My bad, I guess.

stockpirate:
God BLESS the man that killed Tiller.
It is time the left started to feel the wrath of conservatives.
There is a time for peace and a time for war.
Jesus said I came not to bring peace but a sword. Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not.
A people unwilling to use extreme violence to preserve their liberty deserve the tyrants that rule them. The two phrases are written over the doors of the Justice Department in DC, "Repression breeds violence" and "Where justice ends, tyranny begins"
Certainly the unborn are suffering under the boot of tyranny and are being repressed by the ungodly.
Rightous men have an obligation to change the wanton murder of the unborn.
A nation that allows the murder of the unborn deserves God's harsh judgement.

and this thread:

Lexington Green:
What goes around...

newfreep:
Whatever "church" Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.

IDRATHERNOT:
Tiller Shot & Killed? Thousands of unborn children claim self defense.

wardaddy:
he reaped what he's sowed same as anyone so evil

Sloth:
*shrug* Genocide has consequences.

The Sons of Liberty:
Shooting was too good for him. Too bad his body wasn't torn to pieces like his victims.
May he burn in hell for eternity.

wardaddy:
This guy wa a monster period.
Did you cry when Dahmer got killed in the joint?
Would you worry about Manson?
nothing personal but ya'll are soft as butter.
I make no apologies whatsoever, folks here will be ill prepared for where we're headed.

whatisthetruth:
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner, couldn't have happened to a better man, IMO.

P-Marlowe:
If you TRULY believe that Abortion is murder, then you cannot condemn anyone who would do anything to stop this mass murderer from continuing in his crimes. This is where the rubber meets the road. If you call abortion murder, then this was justifiable homicide. If abortion is not murder, then Tiller was the victim of a heinous crime and his killer should be condemned.

mjp:
Sometimes retaliatory force is necessary to stop initiation of force by those who are violating natural rights. Preservation of life and natural rights of the innocent is a natural duty that God requires.

tips up:
If the killer just put scissors into his skull, it would be considered a late term abortion (60+ years late) and he would be a hero of the left, rather than a domestic terrorist.

gscc:
I suppose if Hitler had been assassinated there would have been many "good" Germans who would have looked at the assassin as a "crazy". Let's face it - this country has lost it's soul. We live in a post-Judeo-Christian nation and it will only go down hill from here. There will certainly be many "good" Americans that lament the passing of this evil man. With a federal government, press and apostate "church" firmly entrenched in liberal secular theology we are witnessing the end of the founder's America.

MichiganConservative:
It's abortion in the 272nd tri-mester (ROTFLMAO)
Post-extraction lead-induced termination.

[betty boop]

...we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Eph 6:12)

And our struggle needs to be primarily focused toward the spiritual.... This seeming lack of simple logic by the pro-abort side shows that there has to be a spiritual force involved.... the only way to achieve total victory is through the spiritual: God removing the evil upon this country that shapes the culture to view human life in a utilitarian fashion and to make abortion an unspeakable act.

I couldn't agree with you more, markomalley! This truly is "the big picture," the most truthful way to frame this issue.

Thank you for your superb essay/post.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for underscoring markomalley's essay-post and Scripture selection, dearest sister in Christ!

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. - Zech 4:6

I pray earnestly for Spiritual renewal throughout the United States.

[Antoninus]

People DON’T need to see these pictures to be persuaded, the people that you are trying to reach already know that they are killing children, this sort of tactic does nothing to change their minds.

Yes, it does change minds. Most pro-abortion people I've shown pictures like that to have no come-back for them except to claim that the photo is 'fake'.

They images are disgusting and hideous. But the act itself is moreso. But the act is legal and people need to shown the result of this legal "choice."

I personally think FR should not delete such images.

[AL_76]

While I do agree with you that people do need to see the end result to better make their personal decision, I think the site is in the right by not allowing the pictures themselves to be published here. Have you considered linking to the photos with a disclaimer that the images are graphic? That should satisfy all parties without offending the ‘hapless’ reader who chooses not to view the images.

[betty boop]

In that event, the issue might turn on perception, whether abortion is factually the killing or murder of a child - or whether a person who perceives that it is has a Constitutional right to stand on the soap box in the town square and broadcast his perception. If so, that would be a silver lining to this Freedom of Speech cloud.

IMHO, if the Freedom of Speech of the pro-life movement is further curtailed under some legal theory that we are complicit by what we broadcast — then the courts must follow through and exact the same restrictions across the board.

LOLOL then we'd really know what censorship is! "Speech is so dangerous that it must be curtailed by the government for our own safety!!!" [Like guns and bullets.] Of course, any judge who actually ruled to effect such measures would be in flagrant violation of the First Amendment. The question then becomes: could he get away with it?

A digression: Evidently there are Christians who would take the position, yes he can; because if the court so ruled, then we simply must accept it. (And certainly that would be the DoJ's POV.) That's because, the reasoning goes, God has put us "under secular government." So whatever the secular government says we must take as our marching orders, regardless (apparently) of whether or not the judge's ruling, or the legislative act, or the executive order met the constitutional tests on which its legitimacy entirely depends. In other words, whether the judge himself was acting within the rule of our secular law (to which he pledged his Oath) or not.

The Framers — who were Christians — would have said that an unconstitutional law is "a nullity"; that is, it has no force and is not binding on the People; it doesn't factually exist as any kind of "law" under our Constitution. Our secular government is the Constitution "writ large." It is to the Constitution that we ultimately owe our fealty at the secular level, not to any man, be he president, senator, congressman, judge, attorney general, etc., etc.

End of digression.

There could be a real silver lining to this debacle: I agree with you that the Tiller/Roeder business ultimately may come down to a First Amendment issue, i.e. Freedom of Speech. We can all step onto our soapboxes and witness unto the unborn in the public square or anywhere else to our heart's content. This may become necessary; for if my suspicion is correct, the DOJ will try to impugn the entire pro-life movement and make them somehow "responsible" for Roeder's homocidal act. (Please notice I'm using a more neutral, less emotionally charged word than "murder" here.) Then it would be incumbant on us to correct the record....

Meanwhile dearest sister in Christ, please join me in prayer for God's light and grace. May His justice be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. May He bless America!

[betty boop]

...Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. — Zech 4:6

I pray earnestly for Spiritual renewal throughout the United States.

Amen.

I join you in prayer for American Spiritual renewal! May the Holy Spirit be with us.

[Alamo-Girl]

I earnestly join in your prayer for our country, dearest sister in Christ!

The Framers — who were Christians — would have said that an unconstitutional law is "a nullity"; that is, it has no force and is not binding on the People; it doesn't factually exist as any kind of "law" under our Constitution. Our secular government is the Constitution "writ large." It is to the Constitution that we ultimately owe our fealty at the secular level, not to any man, be he president, senator, congressman, judge, attorney general, etc., etc.

Indeed, and who knows - if the courts do try a nationwide gag order on the pro-life movement, it might be the last straw. If so, we'd see widespread civil disobedience with the backing of churches great and small.

An Alamo-Girl can dream, can't she?

[betty boop]

An Alamo-Girl can dream, can't she?

Yes she can, most assuredly! And so can a betty boop! :^) I can't imagine the American public would tolerate a government ban on speech on a matter of such vital public importance. Especially since the Constitution envisions a highly active role for citizens in framing the public debate on questions precisely of this kind....

Must get back to work dearest sister in Christ — I'm in-progress writing to you re: numbers!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragements, dearest sister in Christ! I look forward to your essay on numbers!

[Star Traveler]

I see that no one, anywhere, has picked up my comments on Free Republic. I don’t think anyone likes them... LOL...

—

I say that *first* all parents going in for abortion should be given the death penalty. Then next all shooters killing abortionists, should be given the death penalty. And then, lastly — if there are any abortionists left, after all that — then, they should be given the death penalty.

Do it in that order, please...

[Vindibudd]

Apparently, you haven’t, because you have resorted to a “baser” ad hominem attack to my simple analogy.

[muawiyah]

Hmmm, ad hominem? You're the guy who started talking about people being "scarred for life" ~ alas, it's a concept that must necessarily arise out of one's own experience.

Frankly, I don't think that happens. Sure, I have memories of "horrible things" ~ e.g. like sliding down an icy hill in winter into the path of a speeding train, but beyond counseling me to be very cautious around trains, it didn't exatly "scar me".

At the same time I can recall the black form of the train bearing down on us and then being thrown around the inside of our Willys Jeep Station Wagon ~ with a uniweld body!

I do like safe cars.

[HarleyD]

1 Corinthians 10:24 - Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.

Can you please explain to me how that includes murdering abortion doctors?

[Prokopton]

Can you please explain to me how that includes murdering abortion doctors?

You posted that contrary to being our brothers keeper we can only look after our own salvation. Scripture does not agree. Looking out for the good of your brothers and sisters, even those still in the womb, is your biblical duty as exemplified by the verses cited and literally hundreds more.

"Just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved." Saving others must be the concern of every Christian.

Murder is prohibited by the word of God, killing is not.

[AnAmericanMother]

Wow. I used to investigate crossing accidents for Southern Railroad.

A little easier way to learn to be cautious around trains.

Did y'all make contact, or did you manage to skid out of the way?

(fwiw, I was in a plane wreck, and I'm not scarred for life either. Just cautious about who I fly with.)

[muawiyah]

No, didn't skid out of the way. Train and vehicle connected and we were dragged down the track for anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 mile.

All survived.

I am leary of icy hills.

[AnAmericanMother]

Holy CATFISH, Andy!

Glad you lived to tell the tale.

Glad EVERYBODY lived to tell the tale. So was the engineer, I'm sure. They are 100% helpless when something like that happens.

We live right next to a busy crossing, have for about 15 years, several close calls but no actual train-to-vehicle contact while we've been here. A bunch of us did actually bodily DRAG a Jeep Wrangler off the crossing under the headlight of an approaching (and frantically braking) train. Fortunately CSX was under a go-slow order at the time, or we never would have gotten him clear in time. The engineer had a few choice words for the driver (it was 100 percent his fault, he drove around two barriers and a "CROSSING CLOSED" sign - it was closed for a reason, the asphalt had been removed. He hung his front bumper under the first rail.) My husband told him to go right to church as soon as he had changed his underclothing . . . .

[HarleyD]

You posted that contrary to being our brothers keeper we can only look after our own salvation. Scripture does not agree.

I would disagree with that analysis and believe I've posted scripture that supports my conclusion. I'll stand by my post. At the end of the day we can only look after our own salvation.

Murder is prohibited by the word of God, killing is not.

Agreed. Taking another life with legal support is killing. Taking another life without legal support is murder.

[Nowhere Man]

Be aware that the trigger may be not of our interest. We are not the only ones unhappy and looking for solution to greivances. Terrorists are not the only ones looking for abrupt disruptive change. The Left has been making such noises for quite some time, and of late are showing equal/increased discontent with their messaiah. La Raza has also been making noises, and I've recounted on other threads how they may, on short notice, pull off Reconquista.

True, in our thought experiment if we go at it with the left, in the chaos, other groups could see it as a time to move in. We could end up balkanised, sort of like Whitley Streiber's "WarDay" minus the nukes and EMP. In his book, after the limited US/USSR limited nuclear exchange, there was a Reconquista of the Southwest in New Mexico, Arizona and part of California. They are constantly fighting the Texans IIRC.

My concern is not just that we will run out of options.
My concern is that someone else will run out of options first.
While we are trying to affect change with reason and politeness and grace to a fault, another group will withdraw consent and force a three-or-more-way split upon us. California, having built the greatest house of welfare cards, is about to collapse first - and it's not right-wingers who are likely to lead the response to that collapse.

True, I think somebody, somewhere will have to make a decision between what is bad and what is worth and selected the bad choice and be the first to fire a shot. It could be us, it could be the left, or even someone else. Again, it is like my animal in a corner analogy, when they see nothing to lose the cat or baby chick will dig in and fight when backed into a corner. We need to turn this off but I don't know how exactly although I think Glenn Beck's 9-12 Project is the last peaceful attempt to do this.

[Marysecretary]

yeah, pretty nasty...