Posted on 04/02/2009 7:05:41 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
Information in Living Organisms
Theorem 28: There is no known law of nature, no known process, and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter...
(for remainder, click link below)
(Excerpt) Read more at answersingenesis.org ...
Yes, I am talking about observables and the effect of observation. My phone won’t support the symbols, but your symbols do: Observation itself forces a change from probability to a state. Hence A(observed) equals fixed state is different from A(unobserved) equals probability fuction with the potential to resolve to both A(observed) state or another state.
Do you think that A(unobserved) must reduce to the same state as A(unobserved)? If so, please explain why observing one slit of the two slit experiment destroys the interference pattern and results in a particle like pattern. There is a Noble Prize in it for you.
Second (unobserved) should be (observed). Sry.
When dimension Time is better understood, the two slit experiment will be understood. [HINT: there is a difference in planar time and linear time; the particle beam is in planar temporal expression until observed, then it collapses into linear.]
As it happens, of course, it is quite possible to "prove a negative" in many cases. For example, if one says "X cannot exist," one can approach the proof by assuming that X does exist, and showing that such an assumption leads to a contradiction.
As it happens, I agree that "Theorem 28" is a lamentably poorly stated proposition -- not because it's a "proof of a negative," but because it's a claim based on "no known process or sequence of events...." It is merely an argument from ignorance, in other words, and has no actual value.
If Ms. Boop is correct, I believe Dr. Shannon defined "information" as being independent of the process by which it was encoded. Whether mental or random, the process is irrelevant to the existence of the information itself.
You may have meant to say, "how do you define the process of encoding without a mental process?"
Even that is a poorly-posed question, because the limits of the question are very vague.
For example, I would suggest to you that the exchange of genetic information between sperm and egg is a form of encoding without an intervening mental process. Granted, it's a process of "mindlessly encoding" a small genetic variation on top of a much larger, pre-existing genetic theme, but a new and unique message has nevertheless been "written".
Gitt's assertion is therefore suspect (at best) on a small scale; can we really trust it on a larger scale?
I do believe Dr. Shannon had a mind. The point being is that information is a concept not a physical thing.
I believe you are incorrect.
You got a theory (not theorem) for that? An idea? Does it explain the fact that observation at the QM level (i.e. before entropy acts) changes the physical result (i.e. interference pattern or not). If it does, freep me, I’ll brush up on my QM, and we’ll share the Nobel (no joke).
Recall though that the start of this discussion was whether or not observation changes the physical reality. It provably does.
Well then please provide the physical measurements of information. Position, mass or energy, charge, whether it is a fundamental entity or comprised of other entities and how we can tell what is not information.
But there is also a form of noise which is a coherent message or message fragment that is broadcast (non-autonomous to the receiver) or that bleeds into the channel.
For instance, you might be watching a television program and suddenly also be picking up a radio transmission. As the "receiver" the effect of the noise may be good or bad.
This phenomenon (autonomous v non-autonomous) has been posited as a pathway for mutation in biological systems and also a solution for the rise of syntax in abiogenesis (e.g. Rocha.)
You might find the peculiar applicability of Shannon's channel capacity to molecular biology to be interesting: Claude Shannon: Biologist
Immediately I am reminded of E=MC2.
And the same applies in everyday situations.
The Constitution, which is beautiful, contains just a few hundred words. The thousands of laws in the U.S. Code which expand on it are not beautiful.
And simple legal agreements are easier to enforce than lengthy agreements because excess verbiage invites opportunities to find loopholes.
And what could be more beautiful than the Sermon on the Mount? No amount of commentary can improve it.
I cannot claim to be an anything close to an expert on Dr. Shannon's theory; however, Shannon's work seems to center on the concept of "information" as represented, for example, by bits -- a pair of binary states that can be represented in various ways: the position of a relay, for example, conveys one "bit" of information.
In the real world, a "bit" is physically represented in various ways, and those bits are transmitted by various physical means -- modulated onto an RF carrier, for example.
Shannon's paper (to which you provided a link) deals in various ways with the topic of encoding and decoding information onto a medium, in the presence of noise.
Shannon makes no assumptions about how the bits themselves were defined: he merely addresses the bits themselves, and the likelihood of recreating or approximating on the receiving end, those bits that were originally placed on the carrier at the transmitting end.
Position, mass or energy, charge, whether it is a fundamental entity or comprised of other entities and how we can tell what is not information.
Given that we work with Shannon-type information every day, it is quite evident that "bits" are not simply abstractions -- they have very distinct physical meaning as well. And yet they're also "representational" in the sense that various physical methods can be used to represent the same (say) binary state.
What you're digging for, apparently, is a statement that the interpretation of bits is the same as the bits themselves. But that's just it: if we want to talk about "information" in a Shannon sense, we are merely discussing the likelihood of faithfully recreating the transmitted bits the original bits, after noise has altered the state of some portion of the transmitted data.
Shannon's work doesn't deal with intent on the transmitting side, nor does it deal with interpretation on the receiving end -- it merely deals with the data themselves.
These will be possible signals for the channel. Thus in telegraphy suppose the symbols are: (1) A dot, consisting of line closure for a unit of time and then line open for a unit of time; (2) A dash, consisting of three time units of closure and one unit open; (3) A letter space consisting of, say, three units of line open; (4) A word space of six units of line open.
As you can see the signals are represented on a physical medium but they are defined conceptually. A dash could have been defined as consisting of four time units of closure and two of open.
That it’s a distinct possibility. Yeah, I think that’s what I said. Eternal intelligence, where did it come from?
As I said, it is representational in a sense; however, the information is encoded by physical means into a series of discrete states -- and THAT is not conceptual at all. Shannon doesn't deal with the concept, he deals with the physical extraction of physical states from a medium that is subject to noise.
You're still trying to conflate intent, with that physical arrangement of discrete states. Shannon does not do that.
Mr. Gitt is trying to do the same -- he is saying that the physical arrangement of discrete states must always be a result of a mental process. Just to state it that way, however, is to see the error in his statement of the problem.
If we look at the example of sperm meeting egg, we see a creation of new information, without a mental process involved. And on that small scale, anyway, we see that Mr. Gitt's assertion is incorrect.
No, I don't believe you can say that for in point of fact each of these living things has some aspect of intent/will that is not a molecular reality else clever humans it is likely would have figured a way to duplicate this non-molecular 'impulse'. We might even say that 'LIFE' is a phase shift beyond the physical expressions of spacetime as we comprehend it, presently.
In reality we have yet to fully understand, LIFE may function in a spacetime continuum we have yet to discern with our limited comprehension of dimension Time, yet LIFE is intimately connected to but not dependent upon the level of spacetime we perceive as the realm of the physical/molecular interactions of our science.
Also, the term "information" has morphed in common usage to mean the message itself, which upon receipt in measured in bits.
But information under the Shannon model is the reduction of uncertainty (Shannon entropy) in the receiver as it moves from a before state to an after state. It is the action of successful communication, not the message itself.
So whereas the receiver's having being informed (reduction of uncertainty) is quantifiable providing the before and after states are measurable --- both the received message and the information (action) may be physically manifested (subject to observation) - or not.
For instance, a voice message and the pressure wave whereby it arrived are physical and observable.
Conversely, a Spiritual truth and the manner whereby a Christian is "informed" are not physical. Even so, the "reduction of uncertainty" in the Christian is real, and if his before and after states were observable and measurable, it could be quantified under the Shannon model.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. – I Corinthians 2:13-14
In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4
Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9
Personally, I see the unreasonable effectiveness of math (Wigner) as God's copyright notice on the cosmos. And that includes not only geometries and functions but also "information theory and molecular biology."
As a final note, the earliest cosmic record of a pressure wave (sound) is recorded in the cosmic microwave background radiation at the moment light formed and went its way.
Of a truth, I see information (defined below) as the difference between life v. non-life/death in nature.
As another example, the Miller/Urey experiments never got further than amino acids. But Wimmer was able to bootstrap the polio virus under laboratory conditions. The difference? Wimmer started with the message itself, i.e. the RNA sequence.
But "life" has layers of meaning and the above is speaking of physically living things. In Scripture, different terms are used:
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. - Romans 8:19-22
2. ruach - the self-will or free will peculiar to man (abstraction, anticipation, intention, etc.) – by Jewish tradition, the pivot wherein a man decides to be Godly minded or earthy minded.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. - Romans 8:5-6
3. neshama - the breath of God given to Adam (Genesis 2:7) which may also be seen as the “ears to hear” (John 10) - a sense of belonging beyond space/time, a predisposition to seek God and seek answers to the deep questions such as “what is the meaning of life?"
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:4-5
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.