'Live Evolution' Not Witnessed After All

ICR ^ | March 23, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

[GodGunsGuts]

'Live Evolution' Not Witnessed After All

by Brian Thomas, M.S.*

Some science media outlets are hailing a recent study as “live evolution witnessed,” but what researchers at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique actually saw isn’t evolution at all. They observed, over the course of 300 generations, predator bacteria adapting to overcome certain defenses erected by its prey.

The kinds of minor changes that these bacteria experienced, however, do not support the broad Darwinian philosophy that life continually evolves upward...

[BlueDragon]

we've circled back to the circular argument?

When will "crevo" threads evolve?

Wait.

Wait.

Keep waiting...

[Cedric]

From my own link:flight evolved.

Tell me, how does flight "evolve"? And how long would something like that take (round-off to the nearest 100 million years)?

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

Integrity experiment for you: If you were challenged to compose a straight forward, non loaded hypothetical question which did not contain an assumed false premise, would you be able to do so and, if so, what would it look like?

Huh? I said "if birds evolved from dinosaurs." "If" statements can involve both true and false conditions: "If I were a rich man," "if wishes were horses." That's why I called it a thought experiment--I guessed that you don't believe birds evolved from dinosaurs. Are you saying you can't answer the question because you can't even imagine that situation?

It's really not a loaded question.

[Cedric]

Okay, you go first.

If god created a prehistoric bird which He prompted men to later name Archaeopteryx upon finding fossils, thereof, what would it look like?

[Cedric]

Corrected:

Okay, you go first.

If God created a prehistoric bird which He prompted men to
later name Archaeopteryx upon finding fossils, thereof, what would it look like?

[DallasMike]

Sorry, I forgot to edit the post after I found the story of the tetraploidal rat. We don’t know when that happened. Also, to be precise, the bacteria don’t eat nylon itself, but rather oligomers from the nylon production process. These oligomers did not exist prior to about 60 years ago.

[atlaw]

Having said that, given the Muslim creationists loathing of terrorism committed in the name of Islam, the more Muslims who become creationists the safer the world will be IMHO.

Did you get this little fictional factoid from Mr. Yahya his own self?

Radical Islam is creationist to the core, and if you want to dispute that, you're going to have to demonstrate the existence of some fundamentalist Islamic group that even acknowledges the existence of science and the theory of evolution (other than, of course, for the common creationist cause of demonizing them).

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

If God created a prehistoric bird which He prompted men to later name Archaeopteryx upon finding fossils, thereof, what would it look like?

If I understand your question correctly, it would look like Archaeopteryx, because why else would He prompt us to name it that? In other words, if He had intended us to name it Archaeopteryx, he'd have created something that we would name Archaeopteryx, which would be the thing we actually did name Archaeopteryx.

If that's not a good enough answer, it's not because I'm trying to dodge, it's only because I might not have understood what you were getting at. If it is a good enough answer, does that mean you'll answer mine now?

[Sopater]

Thought experiment for you: if birds did evolve from dinosaurs, what would a transitional look like?

Good question, who could say.

Roughly, how many transitional species would there in the direct lineage between the common ancestor and the first bird? How many divergent species would there be that lead to a dead end and don't actually become birds? If they're not birds or dinosaurs, just what are they? How many fossilized species would we expect to find of any of these transitionals?

If all animal kinds were created by one supreme being so that they were capable of immense variation within their kind, would any animals share characteristics that that were similar to characteristics of animals of another kind?

[Ira_Louvin]

“The most amazing fact about the evolution of flight is the extent of convergent evolution between the three main groups that evolved it (again, the pterosaurs, birds, and bats). In this convergence, we can see some semblance of general “rules” that may govern how animals evolve flight, and from these rules we can perhaps glean a hint of what it takes for an animal to have potential for flight.”

This link should help you out with that question.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html

[count-your-change]

I think I see your point: If all those head chopping, explosive vest types would just go with Chuck instead of Mo they would become Lotus eaters and want to retire their AK 47’s to the practice range.

[Cedric]

“In this convergence, we can see some semblance of general “rules” that may govern how animals evolve flight, and from these rules we can perhaps glean a hint of what it takes for an animal to have potential for flight.”

semblance

general

may

perhaps

glean

hint

potential

That was or might have possibly perhaps sort of been or could be a really or somewhat great answer or not.

[atlaw]

Actually, “if all those head chopping, explosive vest types would just” enter the 20th century (let alone the 21st), they may indeed “retire their AK 47’s to the practice range.”

[Cedric]

Yes.

I envision a single dinosaur sprouting little, beentzy wings, unable to fly with but heavy enough to make it less fit to survive.

Then, I picture it being devoured by a t-rex who specializes in eating mutants.

Finally, I see the big evolution roulette wheel spinning and spinning for eons until at long last the cycle and pattern are repeated.

[count-your-change]

You confuse modernity with ideology. I must assuredly don't want some crazy to have the most modern means and knowledge to wage some kind of jihad on others.

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

what would a transitional look like?

Good question, who could say.

I would say that it should have some features of one and some of the other. I can't imagine what else it would be.

Roughly, how many transitional species would there in the direct lineage between the common ancestor and the first bird?

I have no idea. I'm not sure anyone claims to have an idea.

How many divergent species would there be that lead to a dead end and don't actually become birds?

Probably lots.

If they're not birds or dinosaurs, just what are they?

They're transitionals.

How many fossilized species would we expect to find of any of these transitionals?

Darn few. Fossils are rare. We're extremely lucky to have the Archaeopteryx fossils we do have.

[Ira_Louvin]

So what hypothesis do you propose, and what falsifiable evidence do you have to support it?

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

I envision a single dinosaur sprouting little, beentzy wings, unable to fly with but heavy enough to make it less fit to survive.

Oh, kinda like these guys?

Note there's nothing about them that should lead you to conclude they were trying to fly. Your mistake is in thinking evolution had a wing in mind, rather than asking whether feathers on a long arm that could be raised over the head could be advantageous in and of themselves.

[Sopater]

We're extremely lucky to have the Archaeopteryx fossils we do have.

We certainly are. It typically requires catastrophe of biblical proportions to get fossils in the first place.

[Sopater]

Your mistake is in thinking evolution had a wing in mind, rather than asking whether feathers on a long arm that could be raised over the head could be advantageous in and of themselves.

And all of the incremental changes required to grow a feather instead of a scale were also adventageous to simply keeping the scales?