Posted on 12/09/2008 12:32:05 AM PST by marthemaria
WASHINGTON (AFP) — US President George W. Bush said in an interview Monday that the Bible is "probably not" literally true and that a belief that God created the world is compatible with the theory of evolution.
"I think you can have both," Bush, who leaves office January 20, told ABC television, adding "You're getting me way out of my lane here. I'm just a simple president." But "evolution is an interesting subject. I happen to believe that evolution doesn't fully explain the mystery of life," said the president, an outspoken Christian who often invokes God in his speeches.
"I think that God created the Earth, created the world; I think the creation of the world is so mysterious it requires something as large as an almighty and I don't think it's incompatible with the scientific proof that there is evolution," he told ABC television. Asked whether the Bible was literally true, Bush replied:
"Probably not. No, I'm not a literalist, but I think you can learn a lot from it." "The important lesson is 'God sent a son,'" he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at google.com ...
But it seems that the doctrines of evolution as taught by defacto authorities on the subject do trouble you. Otherwise there would be no need to hide behind innocuous-sounding vagaries like 'evolution just means change...' and so on. Why not present what authorities like Dawkins, Dobzhansky or Ernst Mayr say about evolution? You won't though. What you will do is give me an earfull of your own personal happy fantasies about "evolution", which doesn't include all that nasty stuff the acknowledged experts say.
The error is twofold: relying on wikipedia, and not understanding that "great apes" is a common term, not a taxonomic term.
Hominidae (Encyclopedia Britannica, 2008)"in zoology, one of the two living families of the ape superfamily Hominoidea, the other being the Hylobatidae (gibbons). Hominidae includes the great apes—that is, the orangutans (genus Pongo), gorillas (Gorilla), and chimpanzees and bonobos (Pan)—as well as human beings (Homo)."
What I *do* is pray that they will be saved and become evangelists for the Lord. I spend much of my time engaging their ideas at their blogs, at conferences, in letters to the editors, and at my own blog.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/11/the_logic_that_makes_him_confi.php
http://www.lifeethics.org/www.lifeethics.org/2007/10/expelled-movie-its-about-censorship.html
http://www.lifeethics.org/www.lifeethics.org/2008/03/expelled-movie-conversation-continues.html
http://feeds.technorati.com/blogs/www.lifeethics.org%2Fwww.lifeethics.org
Truth will out. There is always a way to mirror Paul at Mars Hill for these people, reminding them of the conflicts and inconsistencies within their own ideologies and “authorities.”
And they give us so many opportunities to win them to Christ, if we are willing to look at ideas, not personalities.
The point is that the notion that the Creator did not use the tool of evolution of the species means that someone “might as well throw out the Bible,” or is not a believer or Christian is a stumbling block to the weakest of our brothers and sisters. The Lord does not require perfect knowledge, only that *we* go out and “baptize them in the (logos, name, knowledge, Word) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”
Again, paraphrasing Romans 14 - All the law can be summed up in “love one another.” Be careful that in snapping at one another you do not find yourselves devoured. It’s better to lovingly disagree with ideas and understandings than to attack the person.
You're not making sense.
You can be an ape if you like. Have a banana.
yet our soul is an immortal gift from God.
Your outbursts of piety are indeed convincing. However, Darwin (and the rest) say our intellectual and moral faculties come from apes by natural selection and random variation, not from God.
To say that something is not “literal” is not to say it’s “untrue.” Analogies, poetry, metaphors are not literal, but (as we’ve reviewed) they can be and are often true.
Rom 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak . . .
I was referring to your post # 202 and I goofed in editing that sentence:
“The point is that the notion that the Creator used the tool of evolution of the species means that someone “might as well throw out the Bible “
Perfect understanding - or editing - is not required.
However, I did get all those links right, thanks to John Robinson’s programming.
As a matter of fact, I’d like to ask you to pray specifically for Sam Harris:
http://www.lifeethics.org/www.lifeethics.org/2008/11/beyond-belief-3-candles-in-dark-from.html
Watching all 3 years of his presentations at the “Beyond Belief” conferences convinces me that Mr. Harris is running like crazy from the Lord.
You still make no sense. 202 says:
A Christian who denies desgin, purpose, planning and intention on the part of God in dealing with his creatures, may as well deny everything else in the Bible and in the Christian faith...
If a person claims to be a believer in Christ, he has an obligation to think before he speaks and to not cast any doubt on The Word of God - the Word that gives people the information they need to avoid an eternity in hell.
There are too many people who don't know Scripture enough to be able to differentiate between "literal truth" of Scripture and "absolute truth". The person who claims the name of Christ has to ensure that he does not put enough doubt into a person's mind that they reject Christ altogether.
I understand symbolism and metaphors and all that, but the fact remains that because a principle or a commandment or a prophecy may be told in a parable, or told using symbols, does not then make the underlying truth invalid.
Christians who know Christ and who know what is at stake have a special obligation to be careful what they say.
I’m praying that the Lord bless you with understanding for your original statement in post number 5.
Humans and chimps are more closely related to each other by DNA than either is to a gorilla. A human a chimp and a gorilla are all more similar to each other by DNA than either is to an orangutan.
The Pope, the President, and myself all think that we came from apes by natural selection of random variation, as was God's plan.
Can you tell me who he is and what he does?
Thank the Lord, He has all the understanding we need. God bless, and please consider my prayer request.
If there has ever been a time in the life of the President during which he made the decision to accept Christ as his Savior, and at that moment of decision received the Holy Spirit, and studied Scripture under the direction of the Holy Spirit, there is no way that he could, in good conscience, publically declare that the Word of God is not literally true.
As a Christian, I have very good understanding of the statement I made, and I would make the same statement again.
Maybe the President needs to pray for forgiveness for saying what he did and putting doubt about Christ into the minds of how many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people who heard or read what he said. Perhaps the president needs to pray for better understanding of Scripture so that he would know beyond any question that the Word of God is absolute truth and that no Christian can compromise on that fact.
“This is fascinating. I’ve never had a discussion with someone who rejected Linnaean taxonomy on philosophical basis! I’m curious just how far you take this. We’ve established that you don’t think that you’re a hominid (family: hominidae). Do you also deny being:
a) A primate (order: primates)?
b) A mammal (class: mammalia)?
c) An animal (kingdom: anamalia)?
d) A eukaryote (domain: eukarya)?”
I’ll go this far with you.....
First: What do Faith in a Supreme Being Creator and man’s philosophies have in common?
To cut to the chase - I’ll answer this: They have nothing in common. Philosophy is not Faith. Faith is not philosophy.
Is that a difficult stretch? I’m certain it is for some, and I mean that in sincerity and without insult.
Is it possible to accept: God says it, and I believe it - without ADDING man’s “rational investigation”, or his “philosophical study with a view to improve or reconstitute the basic principle”?
These two quotes are defined under “philosophy”.
Could talk here for a while, but I will say that while one may study the scriptures routinely - thinking and deduction is of course required, but this does not mean philosophy is by default included. I meditate on the scriptures - not on my thoughts or additions TO the scriptures. I adhere to them - I do not adapt or rationalize them to fit me. That is my view of te difference in Faith in God and the value of a man’s philosphy is basically.
Now, I said that to get to this:
The questions/comments come right back to you.
God spoke of creating the “wild animals” “according to their kinds” (and all the other creatures according to their kinds).
He did not speak of or relate humans with the wild animals or other creatures in any form of grouping at all!
He is very clear that man(kind) is unique:
He did not classify man with the “wild animals”. He called man a “living being”, but not an animal. Why are humans not in the grouping with “wild animals”? Why in the creation text - are humans defined as their own kind?
God never once called man(kind) an animal in scripture (in a literal definition that I know of). (Some acted like animals for sure....)
And God specifically created man in his own image.
He also placed man over all the other creatures.
And if you do some digging, I challenge you to find any other being that has a “soul”. Mankind again is unique in this fact.
(I’m inclined to say (bad memory) scripture also states that it only mentions God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” about man alone. While scripture states animals have the breath of life in them, it only specifically mentioned that God breathed into his (man’s) nostrils about man, and no other creature of any kind. (another topic another day)).
Now, conclude what you wish. Philosophies aside, the order of human kind aside....neither you or I will care which of your options we may be - at an approaching specific point in time. That is not a cop-out answer and I realize scientists have an apparent ‘need to know’ in their biological studies.
All I want you to do is at least consider what scripture says, and what it does not say. Of course we are red blooded fleshly ‘beings’, but I also know scripture clearly indicates humans are:
e)Unique! Final answer!
And certainly, the accomplishments of man prove this to be true.
Sam Harris is an atheist who evangelizes for the position that if you don’t believe that all of the Bible is literally true, you might as well forget it all as false and myth. Those links at my blog lead to his speeches to scientists.
Harris wrote “Letter to a Christian Nation,” and believes that his neuroscience work will prove there’s no God. For years, he was a seeker who was sidetracked by Eastern philosophy. I believe he wants to believe and that the Lord is calling him.
Have you ever been interviewed for an article or video news piece? Were you edited or quoted? I doubt that the President’s statements meant the same thing that you read.
Nevertheless, the President pointed more people to the Gospel than you or I will ever reach. Even Peter and John did not understand everything the day Christ rose from the dead - they didn’t believe the women who told them He’d risen, but they knew that Jesus was the Son of God.
By the way, people like Sam Harris love to point out the discrepancies like those narratives about Jesus in Matthew 28, Mark 16, John 20 and Luke 24. Was it a woman or women, who either did or did not touch him, did John and Peter run to the tomb before Mary Magdalene saw Jesus and/or was it just John or Peter and John who ran to the tomb and took up the cloths and then believed, etc.
While wikipedia is certainly suspect on political issues, it's at the very least a good starting point on most subjects.
and not understanding that "great apes" is a common term, not a taxonomic term.
Your quote from Britannica says the humans are part of the ape superfamily Hominoidea. So we are apes, as per your source. What's more, see the following:
http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/1652/ape.html
"...the family Hominidae consisting of gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, and humans, collectively known as the "great apes"
http://apes.eu/
History of hominoid taxonomy
"As of 2006, there are eight extant genera of hominoids. They are the four great ape genera (Homo (humans), Pan (chimpanzees), Gorilla, and Pongo (orangutans))"
It certainly appears to be a taxonomic term...
Why are humans not in the grouping with “wild animals”? Why in the creation text - are humans defined as their own kind?
Because the text in question was written by a pre-scientific people with no understanding of modern biology. They were trying to explain the world as best they could.
And if you do some digging, I challenge you to find any other being that has a “soul”. Mankind again is unique in this fact.
It will be very difficult to find any evidence that any being, humans included, has what you call a "soul", no matter how hard I dig...given that there isn't the slightest shred of scientific evidence that such a thing even exists.
All I want you to do is at least consider what scripture says, and what it does not say.
Since I'm not a Christian, what would be the point? Should I consider what the Koran says as well? Or for that matter the Book of Mormon, the Principia Discordia, the Vedas, Dianetics....?
Of course we are red blooded fleshly ‘beings’, but I also know scripture clearly indicates humans are: e)Unique! Final answer!
Do you or do you not deny that humans are a) primates, b) mammals, c) animals, and d) eukaryotes? While I certainly invite you to elaborate, the only correct answer to each question is either "yes" or "no". So which is it?
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