Posted on 11/24/2008 12:56:31 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
These examples illustrate why the underlying standard of morality is necessarily independent of religious claims — otherwise, there is no way to distinguish between various mutually exclusive religious claims on moral subjects and discern which of them are, in fact, based on valid morality.
The notion of an uncaused “first cause” goes back at least to Aristotle, who lived in the fourth century BCE.
>>Is it reasonable to misbehave if there is not a deity? No.<<
Hahahaha!
The question is of the same veign as “Is it true you’ve stopped beating your wife”. That is, if there is no deity, then the word “reasonable” has no meaning or, more precisely, has a different definition for every human with reasoning power.
And then the question is answered very nicely in the very last sentence of Judges:
In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.
This is funny, they used to just throw infinite time into their “theory”. Now they throw infinite universes. And yet it is not proveable, which makes it faith.
As I have said from the beginning, both sides are a religion, but only one will admit it.
Oh, I should mention that Christians have always believed there is a parallel universe. We call it heaven.
>>Is it very likely that there is a deity? No. <<
You’ll have a hard time convincing those who have a personal relationship with Him of that.
>>The central argument of these scientific atheists is that modern science has refuted traditional religious conceptions of a divine creator. <<
Those that actually believe that tripe really need to read up on DNA.
As a scientist in a 1990’s Scientific American article once said, regarding DNA, “the more we know about it, the more it looks like someone designed it”.
Just sayin’...
>>Note, though, that if someone rejects rationality as a criterion for judging conduct...<<
To who’s rationality are you referring. Saddam thought he was rational. Hitler thought he was rational. If there is no deity you have the luxury of defining your own rationality and consensus doesn’t count. After all, consensus would be merely a result of evolution, which was accidental.
Maybe cancer is more valuable than people and we should nurture it rather than kill it. I mean, we got lots of people, and we seem to make all we want...
LOL. Stevo, the point of this article was that the universe seems custom made for life. IOW everywhere you look in biology - or cosmology - you find "paint brushes & paint" supplied just as if they were meant to be there.
I understand your argument that these "amazing finds" are nothing more than finding that "round pegs fit round holes" - no surprise there.
I am simply expanding your Texas SharpShooter analogy to help illustrate the point of this article.
Now you don't have to agree - but neither do I have to find your analogy useful as it is simply another tool to obfuscate the glaringly obvious question:
"Where in your experience have you seen something come from nothing?"
I know. Read what I wrote.
>.It is readily observed that behavior according to basic civilized rules produces better long-term results than instant gratification.<<
By who’s definition?
I had a similar argument with a Benedictine nun once, who averred that even if there were no God she would act as she did, because "it's just a good way to live." That's as may be --- for her -- but for me, it makes no sense to live in voluntary poverty, chastity, and obedience for a lifetime if "you only come this way once" and therefore it's up to you to "grab all the gusto."
Our loves are as great as our hopes, and the thorough-going atheist has no hopes of anything other than a 100 mph crash into a solid brick wall. And in the long run --- if he cares to think of that which he will never see --- the long sigh of entropy in the heat-death of the Universe.
>>As you note, those who lack that self-discipline tend to degenerate into tribalism...<<
Why is that a bad thing?
So, did god design the AIDS virus too?
Which I find to be ironic considering their mystical beliefs. Atheism has nothing in common with science.
>>So, did god design the AIDS virus too?<<
That is a twist on the old phrase, “How could a loving God allow all the suffering in the world?” The answer? Sin. How did the aids virus get to people? How does it spread? Are there innocent victims? Yep, just like in car accidents.
For a good read on this whole concept, read “The Problem of Pain”, by C.S. Lewis.
Once, years ago, I had a fear. That fear was dying. The end of my life. Since I have known Christ, I don't worry about it any more. I live my days. If that day should come, then I am prepared. My old grand mother, who lived to be a wonderful 99.5 years old told me she never feared death. Not when she was 20 and not when she was 95. She said she KNEW there was a better place. She said she KNEW that she would be in Heaven with God. That is FAITH! Something liberals don't have. If they cannot see it in the NY Times or on CNN, they don't believe it.
I beg to differ.
Tchaikovsky, the Hubble telescope, and the microchip provide things of such grandeur that it's hard for me to believe that people once got excited over a burning bush or parlor tricks with wine and water.
If heat death occurs before we've found a way to colonize outside of the universe, then I hope we will have left a good mark on history. I don't need a pedagogical fairy tale to give me hope.
You've got a good point there. You're in agreement with the Apostle Paul when says,
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
"They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." (Romans 2:14-15)
The Catholic West has a tremendous, millennium-long heritage of reflection on Natural Law --- a philosophy which gave birth to International Law via such thinkers as Bartolome de las Casas and Francisco de Vitoria, and crucially influenced even our own Declaration of Independence ("the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,") and Constitution.
But you were specifically talking about design. Did god design the DNA for the AIDS virus? Human behavior may contribute to its spread, but where did it come from?
I asked my boss, who is an experimental physicist, how he reconciles his devotion to Christianity with being a physicist. He replied, “You can question a person’s scientific beliefs but you can’t very well question their faith.”
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