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Extraordinary Doings in the Bond Market (Negative Interest Rates signals deflation)
Redstate.com ^ | Nov 20, 2008 | Francis Cianfrocca

Posted on 11/20/2008 8:25:28 PM PST by SeekAndFind

To go along with the piece I wrote earlier today, the bond market appears to have picked up on the theme of deflation. The 30-year US Treasury bond rocketed upward in price to more than 118 and a half by today’s market close, and much of the move came late in the day.

This price corresponds to an interest-rate of 3.49% for the long bond. Just this morning, it was trading to yield over 3.90%. For the bond to drop over 40 basis points of yield in a single day is simply unheard of.

If this pricing holds up (and bond yields have been exceptionally volatile for many months now), it indicates at the very least that there is now an expectation that inflation will be non-existent for years into the future.

But I don’t think that’s the whole picture here.

There’s an arcane interest rate called a “swap spread.” It’s a way of pricing plain vanilla interest-rate swaps (the kind where you receive a fixed rate of interest for some period of time on a nominal amount of money, and in return you pay a floating rate, perhaps 6-month LIBOR).

You can think of a swap as roughly equivalent to purchasing a fixed-income security with short-term borrowed money. So it’s useful to compare the fixed swap rate on any given day with the US Treasury rate, at the corresponding point on the yield curve.

And that gives you an interest rate measured in basis points that is generally taken to indicate the credit risk of a typical AA-rated bank. (Since such banks are often the ones who pay on swaps.)

The 30-year swap spread (meaning, the difference in the interest rate on a 30-year swap and a 30-year Treasury bond) has been running slightly below zero for several days now. The swap, in other words, is priced as if it were more valuable than the bond.

This is senseless (and in fact has long been considered mathematically impossible) because a swap has credit risk and a Treasury bond doesn’t. Can you imagine borrowing money, and having the lender pay you interest instead of the other way around? And besides, wouldn’t you guess that someone will always find a way to arbitrage away a negative interest rate?

Negative interest rates are very occasionally seen in overnight repo, depending on the collateral, in times of severe stress. But not in swap.

Today, however, the 30-year spread got even more negative. In fact, it plunged all the way to NEGATIVE 60 basis points, according to some reports. This is almost as surprising as a shattered window pane jumping back together by itself.

The only way this can be possible, that I can imagine anyway, is if large numbers of investors are being forced to liquidate positions, for some reason. It’s known that fixed-income professionals use all kinds of arcane mathematical strategies to trade the shape of the yield curve. Something must be happening to make a lot of those trades go bad all at once. And something must be forcing lots of people to get liquid at once, even if they have to take extraordinary mispricings to do it.

And that tells me that we’re witnessing a temporary, short-lived effect. But it’s like a major volcanic eruption, or a nine-magnitude earthquake. It won’t last for a very long time, but it will produce a completely unpredictable amount of lasting damage. We’re likely to see wild swings in all markets, in both directions, over the next few days and weeks until this washes out.

Pass the popcorn, everyone. We’re witnessing history being made.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bondmarket; interestrates
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To: RockinRight
my hubby is already facing a cutback of 20% of work.....

so if deflation is here, we should just be hoarding cash NOW and not buying extra groceries etc.....won't they be cheaper with deflation.....OR will they become more scarce, since many companies will fail and supplies diminish.....

21 posted on 11/20/2008 9:25:52 PM PST by cherry
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To: rabscuttle385; TigerLikesRooster

$ ping


22 posted on 11/20/2008 9:28:53 PM PST by TenthAmendmentChampion (Don't blame me, I voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin. Well, for Sarah Palin, anyway.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Gary K weighs in:

On The Ledge Again!
http://www.garyk.com/
By Gary Kaltbaum | TradingMarkets.com

Gary Kaltbaum is an investment adviser with over 18 years experience, and a Fox News Channel Business Contributor. Gary is the author of The Investors Edge. Mr. Kaltbaum is also the host of the nationally syndicated radio show “Investors Edge” on over 50 radio stations. Gary is also editor and publisher of “Gary Kaltbaum’s Trendwatch”... a weekly and monthly technical analysis research report for the institutional investor.

Before I get into the technicals, a few things to ponder:

Why is GE having to raise more capital? Is GE just another company who has lied about the condition they are in?

Is CITI next? As you know, I have been calling for single digits in CITI for months. Man...did I get flak for that one! Not anymore. The problem for CITI is not what I think - but as always - what the market thinks. The market forced FNM, FRE, AIG, LEH, BSC and the rest’s hand. CITI is acting like the rest of the cadavers. I think there is a decent chance CITI is next. I cannot believe I am saying that. Prince Alwaleed cannot be a happy man.

Yesterday’s nonsense on Capital Hill is symbolic of corporate culture run amok. How these imbeciles can fly on private planes to ask for money is beyond reason. I must also say I get sick to my stomach every time I see Bob Nardelli...who walked into Home Depot, took out about $250 million...left the company’s culture in shambles...and immediately gets a job running Chrysler.

The credit markets are locked up, do not believe the pundits that are saying credit markets are thawing. All one has to do is see the plunge in U.S. Treasury rates. The latest move was set off by the bumbling, mumbling, stumbling and pitiful fool named Paulson, who publicly announced he changed his mind. This TARP vote will go down in history as one of the stupidest yes votes in history, and I am proud I was against it vociferously. (I think that is a word!)

It continues to amaze me how easily so many fell for this crap when it was proposed by one of the people who caused all these problems. Again, Paulson lobbied this same Congress years ago to raise the leverage for companies like Goldman Sachs...and of course, Paulson ran Goldman Sachs. This was an easy puzzle to put together. Paulson actually argued that “the financial markets are much more stable today than before the TARP”. Who is he trying to kid? ABX and CMBX spreads are predicting a not so nice outcome. I gather this man is counting down the days when he can get out of this job.

Every major index (except the DOW) has broken into new bear market low ground. The DOW always holds best during these drops as money parks itself into megacap companies that pervade the DOW. The only good news here is that the thousands of bottom callers will finally be shut up. The bad news is that the internals are horrid...and buying continues to be anemic into the massive supply of stock that keeps hitting the market. In fact, in the past two days, the internals have been as bad as I have ever seen.

I am not one to give targets but I am one that knows if a market is ready to turn or not. So far, not. There is underlying support down at the last bear market lows at 7200 DOW and 768 S&P. It amazes me, I actually have to mention these levels. This recent ridiculous whipsawing we have been seeing has now only led to another leg down. We may get some waterfall action here because of the break but not sure. I remain in 100% cash and I remain up in this bear market for the ages.

My Most Recent Articles

Insane Market Action
November 17, 2008
With the wild swings of the Dow last week, many pundits have come up with all kinds of reasons for this ridiculous action — hedge funds redemptions, continuing news on the financial crisis. Gary Kaltbaum comments on what’s to come in this longer-term bear market. (more)

Making It Up As They Go Along
November 13, 2008
The auto companies are lined up for a proposed bailout, AIG is up to $150 billion in giveaways and American Express has asked to be named a bank holding company. See Gary Kaltbaum’s take on the why this is becoming a bear market for the ages. (more)

The Evidence at Hand
November 11, 2008
Have we seen the bear market low? According to Gary Kaltbaum, the evidence is slowly coming in...and it is not thrilling. (more)


23 posted on 11/20/2008 9:31:25 PM PST by Matchett-PI (2008 = The Year of the Toilet for 'RATS (They just don't know it yet))
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To: NVDave

That is consistent with my statement about the Velocity of Circulation dropping.

This interest rate is projecting almost NO inflation for thirty years.

And you know what is said about Monetary policy “You can’t push on a string” so it probably is not the answer to the looming recession.


24 posted on 11/20/2008 9:33:34 PM PST by arrogantsob (Hero vs Zero)
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To: Toddsterpatriot; SAJ; AndyJackson

Like, *PING*, dudes.


25 posted on 11/20/2008 9:35:41 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: cherry

Generally and theoretically the bond market moves in an opposite direction to the stock market. Fear drives money out of stocks and into the bond market for safety not return. As the price of a bond goes UP the interest rate it pays goes DOWN. This gives a self-correcting mechanism to the investment market as lower interest rates produces more investment everything else equal. So lower interest rates are “bad” in that they are the symptoms of reduced economic activity.

Your second question is more complex but can be approached by realizing that deflation makes Cash more valuable since prices have falled. It hurts savers though because interest rates fall as well. If you have invested in real assets their prices stagnate or fall hence their rate of return drops. If you had invested in Treasuries then you profit since their prices have increased as does the principal you invested in purchasing them.

The solution to deflation is also a cause of deflation. You want to spend money more slowly since it is becoming more valuable but spending money more slowly means economic growth slows which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Hence, there will be a massive push for even more federal spending as a means of keeping income growth from falling rapidly.

Economics is not called “the dismal science” for nothing.


26 posted on 11/20/2008 9:46:57 PM PST by arrogantsob (Hero vs Zero)
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To: arrogantsob
This interest rate is projecting almost NO inflation for thirty years.

Or possibly a substantial deflation followed by a slow inflation.

27 posted on 11/20/2008 9:47:13 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.)
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To: icwhatudo
What will this do to mortgage rates?

That's exactly what I need to know! Anybody? I'm in a holding pattern right now waiting to convert my construction loan to a permanent loan. The house is finished and I'm living in it. I have until March, '09 to convert, but thought the rates might be coming down, so I've waited; however, I'm paying interest in the meantime, which isn't cheap and it's not taking a penny off the principal.

Can anyone help us - what are the mortgage rates likely to be doing in the next few weeks/months???
28 posted on 11/20/2008 10:18:16 PM PST by GLDNGUN
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To: GLDNGUN

bookmark


29 posted on 11/20/2008 10:24:40 PM PST by meanie monster
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To: loreldan

Hey thats my question


30 posted on 11/20/2008 10:35:54 PM PST by woofie
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To: arrogantsob

That really clears it up for me


31 posted on 11/20/2008 10:37:28 PM PST by woofie
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To: SeekAndFind

4 later


32 posted on 11/20/2008 10:50:58 PM PST by AprilfromTexas
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To: arrogantsob

Could the Chinese be dumping their Treasuries for cash to move on AIG or one or more of the car companies?


33 posted on 11/20/2008 11:13:21 PM PST by exhaustguy
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To: LanaTurnerOverdrive

ping!


34 posted on 11/20/2008 11:39:11 PM PST by LanaTurnerOverdrive ("I've done a few things in my life I'm not proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting.")
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To: loreldan
I’m completely ignorant here, but how can we have deflation when the government if printing money like crazy?

Because under the Federal Reserve System new money can only be created by new DEBT and right now nobody wants more debt because we are drowning in it.

So no new money is being created. Old debt is being defaulted upon. Or paid down at a furious rate due to the anticipation of a declining money supply.

Hence deflation.

35 posted on 11/21/2008 2:39:35 AM PST by Vet_6780 ("I see debt people")
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion; PAR35; bamahead; AndyJackson; Thane_Banquo; nicksaunt; MadLibDisease; ...

Ping!


36 posted on 11/21/2008 2:45:08 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (kim jong-il, chia head, ppogri, In Grim Reaper we trust)
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To: loreldan

Inflation (or more properly “DEFLATION of the value of money”) Takes a good while to work into the system. The inflationary times of the 1970s actually took over 5 years to ramp up after years of goosing the money supply. The first “shock” came with the arab oil embargo in 1973, but we had been running a guns and butter economy since 1966.

That is the good part. The bad part is that once inflation gets imbedded in the general flow of the economy, it is extremely difficult to get out.

The fed is absolutely terrified of the deflationary implosion they have seen in Japan for the last 20 years. So much so that they are committed to do the same dumbass stuff the BOJ did and hope that the results will be better.

Three quarters of our problem has been federal reserve policy of goosing money supply. The other fourth comes when they try to “address” the problems they create.

The federal reserve is stupid, corrupt, incompetent, and horribly destructive. They have pissed away over 96% of the value of the dollar in less than 100 years simply by being allowed to ratchet up the money supply far in excess above the rate of growth our economy has experienced. The curve has been practically asymptotic for the last 27 years or so.


37 posted on 11/21/2008 3:06:22 AM PST by slnk_rules (http://mises.org)
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To: Mariner

That depends on what cash you hold. Right now, dollars are okay- but that’s not likely to last.

Gold, silver , etc are ultimately king, because right now they’re cheap in dollar terms. Other currencies might be okay, maybe not. Depends on what goofy worldwide scheme the central planners are coming up with.


38 posted on 11/21/2008 3:36:29 AM PST by ovrtaxt (It is better for civilization to be going down the drain than to be coming up it. ~Henry Allen)
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To: steve86

Borrowing from who?

Where’s that money going to come from? The monetary base is being expanded one way or another.


39 posted on 11/21/2008 3:38:29 AM PST by ovrtaxt (It is better for civilization to be going down the drain than to be coming up it. ~Henry Allen)
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To: loreldan

I’m completely ignorant here, but how can we have deflation when the government if printing money like crazy?
******************************************************
The gov’t is printing money like crazy but not as crazily as the lenders (currently receiving the gov’t largess) were doing for the last 8+ years by granting credit to everyone and anyone...


40 posted on 11/21/2008 5:40:11 AM PST by Neidermeyer
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