Posted on 08/21/2008 2:24:04 AM PDT by HAL9000
Excerpt -
While it is almost certainly true that Moscow's action in the Ossetian and (for good measure) the Abkhazian enclave of Georgia has been, in a real sense, the revenge for the independence of Kosovo (on Feb. 14 Vladimir Putin said publicly that Western recognition of Kosovar independence would be met by intensified Russian support for irredentism in South Ossetia), it is extremely important to bear in mind that this observation does not permit us the moral sloth of allowing any equivalence between the two dramas.Perhaps one could mention just some of the more salient differences?
1. Russia had never expressed any interest ...
~ snip ~
(Excerpt) Read more at slate.com ...
I'm glad that NATO - not Russia - is in control of Kosovo, and I look forward to Georgia and Ukraine joining the alliance.
It's good to see you admit that!
... Russian "peace keepers" and S. Ossetian separatist militia forces were launching attacks into Georgian towns outside the Ossetian border...
That's a new one. Did you just think it up? Source?
... harrassing and killing ethnic Georgians living in the Ossetian region.
It would appear that that is true, but Georgians were in turn harrassing and killing south Ossetians.
But what did Saakashvili say about all this in his speech on Georgian TV?
I would like to directly address those people who are at this moment shooting peaceful civilians and Georgian police forces.Rather than sticking to his words, he launched a brutal preplanned attack on civilian areas. Had he wanted to stop South Ossetians from firing on Georgian villages, he could have ordered Georgian forces to engage in suppressive fire and counterbattery fire.You have been shooting during the last several days and especially in the last several hours.
I want to declare with full responsibility and confess that several hours ago, in my capacity as Commander in Chief of Georgia, I issued a very painful order directing all Georgian police forces and other units under our control not to return fire, even if they face intensive bombing.
...
I have been proposing and I am proposing Russia act as a guarantor of South Ossetian autonomy within Georgia [I guess they did!].
Saakasvili's immature attack went against the wishes of the United States! Everything flowed from that decision! Are we better off because of it? is the BTC pipeline more secure?
The Kosovo war in 1999 was Bill Clinton’s way of dealing with 5 lingering problems— 1. Draw attention away from Blowjob-gate and his embarrassing impeachment (Hillary Clinton herself seems to have suggested Serbia as a target), 2. Give the epically incompetent Madeleine Albright a place to publicly screw up as Secy. of State, 3. Infuriate a then-weak Russia for no good reason, 4. Launch a “PC War against genocidal Serbs” despite the fact that most genocide in 1999 was being committed by the al-Qaida allied, Islamofascist KLA against Gypsies, Jews, Serbs and opposing Albanians, 5. Most of all— to appease the Islamofascists by making the USA appear to be an ally of Muslim terrorists in the West.
The Islamofascists, of course, showed their gratitude and returned idiot Bill Clinton’s favor by launching the most damaging attack on US soil since the War of 1812. Which of course, was further facilitated by Bill Clinton’s utter incompetence in allowing Osama bin Laden to go free on 5 occasions. Even Democrats these days are admitting that Bill Clinton royally screwed up in Kosovo and has caused major geopolitical problems in his wake.
What’s inexplicable is why George W. Bush himself continued the idiotic policy, though this is perhaps explained in part by Condi Rice, the so-called “Russia expert,” who seems to be in a contest to rival Albright in utter incompetence.
I don’t like what Russia is doing now, and they need to be pressured to high-tail it out of Georgian soil. But the West also needs to withdraw any hint of recognition for the unviable, Islamofascist narcostate of Kosovo as well. For our own good, as much as in any sort of exchange with Russia itself.
You may be right about Kosovo but you are indulging in a little selective history of your own about South Ossetia aren't you?
The May 1920 operation launched by Georgian forces was in response to an uprising staged largely by Ossetians living in the region of Shida Kartli, the historic Georgian name for what is now South Ossetia. It was the third such uprising in as many years.Historian Bondo Kupatadze says the uprisings were the work of the Bolsheviks, who harnessed the Ossetians' separatist leanings in an attempt to reabsorb Georgian territory and restore the former borders of the Russian Empire.
(snip)
Within years, however, Georgia had been incorporated into the USSR -- complete with an autonomous District of South Ossetia, created by the Soviets in appreciation for the Ossetians' role in destabilizing Georgia.
You conveniently leave out the purposeful manipulation of the Ossetian population by the Russian Bolsheviks, which included moving Russians in to the Ossetian region to alter the makeup of the population, to bring about the submission of Georgia to the Soviets.
No, they didn't. You missed the "within Georgia" part. Russia is trying to make South Ossetia a separate entity outside of Georgia.
Actually, I wasn't being "selective". My knowledge of S. Ossetian history doesn't go back that far. Thanks for the information.
But it does prove the point that S. Ossetia has been de-facto independent of Georgia for nearly 100 years. And Georgia isn't even really talking about S. Ossetia being "historic Georgia" -- just "legally Georgia".
Who knows what the future may hold. I believe Georgia still considers South Oseetia within Georgia. I also believe one might say that South Ossetia is protected by Russia regarless of its status.
Russia is not, nor has it ever been, a civilized nation. They had some westernizing monarchs like Peter and Catherine (a German!) but the overall Russian nation has always toed the fine line between civilization and barbarism, often opting for the latter.
I’ll say to you the same thing that I said to Marmema on another thread:
I think that you are under the impression that I support Russia against Georgia, and I don’t, Marmema. But I recognize some realities that others are ignoring.
1. No matter how pro-American Georgia might be, it is not going to wake up tomorrow and it find it has moved hemispheres. It’s location is next to Russia and somehow it must work out some security arrangement with Russia, not against it.
2. No matter how pro-Georgia US leaders might pay lip service to, the US Cavalry is NOT coming to the rescue. We might arm and train, but we are not going to war with Russia “to protect Georgia”. We are simply using it as an excuse to provoke Russia and scare Europe. We are exploiting the situation, not helping it.
3.US leaders don’t really give a damn about Georgia, except as a pawn to needle Russia with. They really don’t care if Russia nukes Georgia — as a matter of fact, they hope it does to give them some excuse to get NATO to neutralize Russia so that they can eliminate Russian oil as competition. Meanwhile, the Orthodox East will be wiped out completely.
4. This is not about “Georgian freedom”, this is about oil — which is why the Bush Administration can confusingly support Kosovo independence in one breath and deny Abkhazian/S. Ossetian independence in the next breath. Georgia has been thrown under a truck to justify fighting over Caspian oil.
5. S. Ossetia and Abkhazia are not “essential” to Georgia. They have been de-facto independent since the break-up of the Soviet Union. And they were relatively peaceful until Shakaashvili came to power and we started using Georgia as a threat to Russia. I am sorry but those two small provinces are not worth fighting a World War over — and make no mistake, Russia is not going to back down if it’s oil supply is threatened because the entire Russian economy is based on supplying oil to Europe. If that oil supply collapses, Russia won’t care who it takes with it and we will be dealing with a World War. However much I might feel for the Georgian people, I am not willing to die for them or for some Western oil companies’ profits!
Actually it was a Georgian, Iosef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, who brought about the submission of Georgia to the Soviets.
Sudetenland was never “essential” to Czechoslovakia.
That is a stupid thing to say. No one has ever questioned that.
TE: ... Russian "peace keepers" and S. Ossetian separatist militia forces were launching attacks into Georgian towns outside the Ossetian border...
That's a new one. Did you just think it up? Source?
Saakashvili’s Televised Address on S.Ossetia
Timeline of Events - Russians Invasion & Occupation of Georgia
New Shootout on Georgia’s Border, Ossetia Suffers Losses
Tbilisi says attempt made to kill Georgian official in S. Ossetia 03/ 07/ 2008
I am not at all sure that I would take the history I have found so far as meaning that. It looks more to me like Russia has exploited and inflamed an ethnic difference for 100 years until it has become inflamed to proportions far outstripping any original conflict. It should be remembered that the original "Ossetian" population were Persians who came to Georgia for refuge.
I appreciate that you are learning about Georgian history. So am I.
Respectfully, Bokababe, Spanish Land Grant families in New Mexico aren't "historically American" but they are completely American. And quite glad to be so I think.
I can't believe you want to stand by that statement. America is the bully and Russia is the poor innocent scarecrow?
He did that all by himself did he? Let's not turn history into a complete joke OK?
Another source for you...
Interviewee (I): Andrei Illarionov, former economic adviser to Putinif we are to speak when the war started, we can determine not from Russian side, not from Georgian side, but statements made by South Ossetian representatives about beginning of war [(hostilities)] and were voiced on August 4, repeatedly, on [or about] August 3, 4 and 5 there turned out quite large number of people in Tskhinvali, that had never been there before, who were reporting that they had arrived there to participate in the war.
I: whatever concerns use of [these systems], there is a large amount of information about the fact that evidently, both side were using [these systems]; from Ossetian side heavy artillery was also used, which was prohibited and should not have been there. From these far range artillery there was a shelling of Georgian position during one week, from August 1 to August 7. [] and our task now is to determine by what means far range artillery, heavy artillery, which is prohibited in the conflict zone, ended up there and what role Russian peacekeepers played in this and how they permitted this to happen.
I:[] Upon entering troops of Russia into Georgia the provision of the Constitution of Russia was violated, as there was no consent of Federation Council. And even now, after passing how many, 12 days, from the date when official Russian government is counting days, there is no decision of the Federation Council on this issue. [] this is a breach of UN Charter, Russia, for the first time [] after December of 79 ended up being an aggressor irrespective of what [actions were taken by the other side].
Please quote the line where it says, in effect, "Russian "peace keepers" and S. Ossetian separatist militia forces were launching attacks into Georgian towns outside the Ossetian border" and supply that link.
You acted like I couldn’t come up with a source. I gave you several and now you complain that there are too many sources. Nobody likes a whiner. There are quotes in each of those articles that support my statement. Do your own homework.
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