A Russian convoy outside the village of Dzhaba in South Ossetia. Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin of Russia declared that "war has started."
Posted on 08/09/2008 1:30:46 AM PDT by HAL9000
Excerpt -
GORI, Georgia, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Russia said it had driven Georgian forces from the capital of South Ossetia on Saturday as part of an operation to force Georgia to accept peace in its breakaway region."Tactical groups have fully liberated Tskhinvali from the Georgian military and have started pushing Georgian units beyond the zone of peacekeepers responsibility," Tass quoted Ground Forces commander Vladimir Boldyrev as saying.
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(Excerpt) Read more at alertnet.org ...
Thanks for the info.
“why wouldn’t a Muslim be able to believe that Muhammad brought a message of peace to the world?”
Of course they could, BUT, that is how brainwashing happens. Start with a simple, yet, believable and supportable idea then incrementally build the story to where you want it. That is how cults are built.
The question isn’t if a mUslim can originally find Islam a place they can call home; the question is what does that home become once the brainwashing begins.
“wikipedia is just a site where ANYONE can put in the information.”
It was handy and helpful though.
Most Georgians in South Ossetia supported the referendum. The fact that the Euroweenies and NATO did not approve of the results - well that’s rather unfortunate
I guess they do not support referenda when the vote goes against their special pipeline interests.
OIl trumps democracy. Very sad.
http://www.regnum.ru/english/737823.html
NOpe
“South Ossetian refugees on Sunday described being shelled and shot at and forced to run for their lives — leaving homes, family members and most of what they had behind. They talked of hiding in the woods, being mocked by Georgian soldiers and passing the dead on the roadside.”
“Kulumbegova ... like many other South Ossetians has become embittered toward the Georgians.
“He always talked of the Georgians as ‘our brothers,’” she said. “But now he doesn’t say that any more.”
Many Ossetians say they believe the United States supported Georgia’s use of military force to try to restore Georgian rule in South Ossetia.”
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iJ9IRmTvOK0ZfH1k2_SLbrR1lyRQD92FILAG0
“Oil trumps democracy”
In other words “no blood for oil”, you are a Russian or Serbian tool.
Part of representative democracies and republics entail respect for the rule of law. That would include the sovereignty of a country. Russia needs to get out of Georgia and fast. Like I said, tell your Russian and Serbian buddies to be careful what you wish for. I know I’ll be sending money to help fight the Russians and the Serbs if they stay in Georgia.
But you can likely relax as the Russian tanks will likely leave when they realize they have caused far more damage than they’ve gained here. Look for NATO to speed up the process to put Ukraine and Georgia into NATO.
Eleni won’t “get” the significance of your comment
If it makes no sense why bother?
Cold warrior Eleni cuts through the BS and the idiotically stubborn refusal by some to allow Russia to exist. Some here on FR naively but genuinely suggest that Russia is still governed by Soviet-era marxists-—too ridiculous for a response - these marxists in fact have been relegated to a tiny percentage of some seniors and assorted lunatics during elections -— BUT and have found warm and loving nests in the “west’ in academia and “think” tanks of all kinds. They are “Greens” and 3rd Way socialists and internatinalists and secular humanists - the usual motley crue of the Left.
IN fact one of these crypto socialist internationalist wizards was first and foremost in the creation of the crime ridden state of Georgia’s present leadership:
http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=407&issue_id=3498&article_id=2370362
So democracy can be ambushed and destroyed when it comes to Mid East politics...very sad. Scary really.
Be careful what you wish for.
When NATO comes bombing your way-—who will you turn to?
We saw the spectacle of NATO bombing innocents (allies in two world wars) during the Easter season in the 90s under the clintonistas...who’s gonna be next?
Im with you.
There is very little reason to get too concerned from our standpoint. It may be a small war of expansion, but the furthest its going to go it the land of what is South Ossetia. No chance that the Russians are making a move to take the whole of Georgia.
Had it been a straight fight, the S Ossetians would lose, but it seems late intervention from Russia has drastically swung the balance.
Surely if South Ossetia is basically subsistance farming with some small commerce, then surely there is very little economic reason for maintaining control over it. Culturally and politically though, its a whole different matter.
“When NATO comes bombing your way-—who will you turn to?”
NATO was formed to defende Europe from the Russians. NATO has kept viable for one primary reason - to protect Europe from the Russians.
Ukraine and Georgia will be in NATO within 3 years, maybe faster now.
When a country gets to the size whereby it can’t contain its own growth (militarilly, financially, etc) they move outside of their borders to find fresh grass on which to graze, as it were.
Russia got a kicking, by itself more than anyone else, but clearly its now back and flexing its muscles. I would be amazed if Russia though tries to take Georgia. My guess is they are just hsowing whose boss.
As a neutral, whats the difference between Kosovo declaring independence, and what the South Ossetians have said. Both ethnics groupings, with very different cultures to that of the state they are within. Much like Iraqi Kurdistan I guess. The Ossetians would unite into one country (North with South), and then get subsumed into the Russian Federation. I don’t see anyone who is going to stop it either.
I’m just glad Georgia isn’t yet a member of NATO. That mutual defence clause would have really put us in a bind!
“Im with you”
Hopefully not. Transformer was banned for being a Russian propaganda troll.
“...Transformer...Im with you”
Hopefully not. Transformer was banned for being a Russian propaganda troll.
NATO was formed to defend Europe from the Soviet Union—not Russia. Russia no longer existed after the takeover by the Bolsheviks. Please try to be aware that Russian people suffered disproportionately at the bloody hands for the Bolshiviks (see Solzhenitsyn—read him even)
But your position is gladly shared by this lovely bunch below
It’s refreshing to see that some freepers are in perfect alignment with the Daily Workers— a Communist Org who insist:
“Our position today should be as it was for most Communists in 1921: support for an independent, democratic Georgia, and opposition to Russian aggression.”
There are alot of Russian propagandists on here. I have to wonder how many are just stupid ethnic Russians, how many are Serbians, and how many are Russian intel plants spreading propaganda.
Putin is and always will be KGB and if it is one thing the Russians are good at - it is propaganda. This operation is just a small part of the new Cold War that Putin is insisting on. The Georgian phas was well coordinated at all levels, military, political, informational. The Cold War is back up and running.
Russia is our enemy.
Don’t believe the propaganda.
Well, if they invade Gori, where are they going to stop? Armenia?
A Russian convoy outside the village of Dzhaba in South Ossetia. Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin of Russia declared that "war has started."
“Well, if they invade Gori, where are they going to stop? Armenia?”
I think it depends on the West’s reaction here. If it is strongly condemned and they are held accountable, they’ll negotiate to stay in S Ossetia and work to annex Ossetia after time goes by after they have bullied Georgia out of the area all together.
If the reaction is divided and attempts to equivocate the Russian attack on a sovereign country with Georgians putting down separatists...then they may get bold and attempt to take all of Georgia “to protect ethnic Persians”.
The consequences will be stiff for Russia diplomatically. You will see Iran’s nuke’s bombed now, without doubt. We’ll probably not give any warning and take some Russian engineers out as we hit Iran. We will absorb Ukrain and Georgia into Nato witin 3 years. Finally, if the Russians push this aggression further and do take Georgia, we will launch a covert war against Russia, which will see them bogged down for years in their perepheral regions.
Sorry.
Please someone slap the panic out of these nutters so they can settle down and think calmly and rationally.
Situation-grave
First shot fired? Russia(though it doesn't much matter at this point)
Georgia, an ally-Yes, perfect, uh, no.
Primary objective-Western control of pipeline. US access to pipeline. And, if it means the integrity of Georgia, so be it.
Yeah, nutters, I suppose it was the Georgian towns surrouding Tskhinvali shelling there own homes.
Whenever someone starts telling us about shelling in Tskhinvali, it is important to keep in mind exactly what Tskhinvali is. It is not a city somewhere in the middle of a republic that is being fired upon by saboteurs. On three sides, Tskhinvali is surrounded by Georgian villages. The edge of Tskhinvali is a military outpost. South Ossetian forces fire from there into the Georgian villages, and the Georgians respond with fire of their own. To help keep Georgian fire from hitting civilians in the city, all the South Ossetians would have to do is move their military base forward a couple hundred meters.
But, of course, it is a fundamental principle of terrorists the world over -- set up firing points in civilian areas and then when your enemy fires on you, you gleefully parade the bodies of your own children in front of the television cameras. Kokoity's terrorists are following this same principle. If South Ossetia can in any way be considered a state, it must be considered a terrorist state.
When we are told about "peaceful civilians" in South Ossetia, we must keep in mind that the situation there is similar to that in Palestinian refugee camps. South Ossetia, like the Palestinian Liberation Organization before it, is not a state or an ethos or a territory. It is a peculiar form of mutated government in which residents have been turned into militarized refugees. It is a quasi-armed force that is not allowed by the authorities to occupy itself with anything other than war -- a situation that gives the authorities absolute power and absolute control over the money at its disposal. It is a place where the hysteria of this disfigured population is the primary means of filling the authorities' personal coffers.
Even more surprising is the fact that the leaders of this region -- despite all their talk -- apparently have done very little to prepare for war and have turned out to be absolutely helpless. At the first sign of trouble, the general director of this joint venture hightailed it out of Tskhinvali. I was amazed to get news overnight that Russian journalists were hunkered down in the main government building and there wasn't even a bomb shelter there. What does that mean? That all the money Moscow allocated for our joint venture never made it outside the Moscow ring road? They were all shouting "Wolf, wolf!" but they didn't even manage to build a barn for the sheep?
Georgia, I think, will win in this conflict for the simple reason that it has a clear strategic goal. The Russian siloviki do not. Moreover, it turns out that these people -- who are pretty good at bankrupting factories and terrorizing companies -- ran without looking back when faced with a real army and all they are capable of doing is complaining to the United Nations.
Snippet from this article:
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