Marines accused of proselytizing in Fallujah; gospel verse on coins

The Seattle Times ^ | 5/29/08 | Jamal Naji and Leila Fadel

[XR7]

FALLUJAH, Iraq — At the western entrance to the Iraqi city of Fallujah on Tuesday, Muamar Anad handed his residence badge to the U.S. Marines guarding the city. They checked to be sure he was a city resident, and when they were done, Anad said, a Marine slipped a coin out of his pocket and put it in his hand.

Out of fear, he accepted it, Anad said. When he was inside the city, the college student said, he looked at one side of the coin. "Where will you spend eternity?" it asked.

He flipped it over, and on the other side it read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16."

"They are trying to convert us to Christianity," said Anad, a Sunni Muslim like most residents of this city in Anbar province. At home, he told his story, and his relatives echoed their disapproval: They'd been given the coins, too, he said...

"Iraq is investigating a report that U.S. military personnel in Fallujah handed-out material that is religious and evangelical in nature," said Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll, a U.S. military spokesman, in a statement e-mailed to McClatchy Newspapers. "Local commanders are investigating since the military prohibits proselytizing any religion, faith or practices."

Residents said some Marines at the western entrance to their city have been passing out the coins for two days in what they call a "humiliating" attempt to convert them to Christianity.

In the markets, people crowded around men with the coins, passing them to each other and asking in surprise: "Have you seen this?"

[ontap]

I wasn’t thinking of the Crusades so much as I was thinking of the Spanish Inquisition and the expulsion of the Moors from Spain and Portugal............

You mean "The Moops"

[donna]

Godless warriors are simply murderers. You've been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Excerpt:

Sparta was, above all, a militarist state, and emphasis on military fitness began virtually at birth. Shortly after birth, the mother of the child bathed it in wine to see whether the child was strong. If the child survived it was brought before the elders of the tribe by the child's father. The elders then decided whether it was to be reared or not. If found defective or weak, the baby was left on the wild slopes of Mount Taygetos - also known as Apothetae, or as the Place of Rejection - to die; but it was also common for these rejected children to be adopted by the helots. In this way the Spartans attempted the maintenance of high physical standards in their population. From the earliest days of the Spartan citizen, the claim on his life by the state was absolute and strictly enforced. (snip)

[pipecorp]

Actually, isn’t this more to winning hearts and minds?
Isn’t islam the problem here? Its not poverty, crime, or any thing other than exactly what this marine was combating by giving out this coin.

Just a side note, if this marine has accepted Christ as lord and saviour, his salvation is already assured. The works brought out by faith , in faith are witness to that and are not needed to “win his salvation”.

[zerosix]

Amen brother.

Simply shocking that some people would try to tell people that there is a God that loves them, desires to save their lives and never demands that they kill others to prove themselves worthy of heaven!

[HKMk23]

PING to involved parties for an additional, qualifying thought on this story.

For the record, Jesus imposed two behavioral criteria on his followers, and they have not been subsequently revoked:

1. Be wise as serpents.
2. Be innocent as doves.

The Marine gets scratch on the first criteria.

The Great Commission is not a license to act unwisely. Doing good in a stupid way is still stupid, and reflects quite poorly on the good you purport to be doing, and — in this case — brings additional reproach upon the message of the cross.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Not at all. Quit the military, buy yourself a ticket to Iraq, and spread the gospel.

You can’t try to convert people to Christianity while on a mission for the United States, which officially has no religion and is not allowed to establish religion.

I strongly oppose silencing people like school teachers and forbidding religious prayers and ceremonies and artifacts on public property.

But I am 100% on board with the idea that, while you are on a military mission, you cannot use your official presence and activity to spread your religion.

Of course, if the marines had been Muslims, and this had been a largely Christian nation we had liberated, I imagine most of the people arguing that the soldiers were right would sing a different tune.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Yours is a religious argument, not a legal one.

So I would guess you wouldn’t support this if they were Mormons handing out literature.

[contemplator]

Godless warriors are simply murderers. You've been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Not Hollywood movies. I'm an ardent studier of ancient history and am well aware of many things both good and bad about the Spartan society.

You're too wrapped up in your religious absolutes to recognize that there are absolutes which exist outside of religion. For example, one does not need god to justify their right to defend themselves and the warriors who do so are not murderers.

You might have argued that the Spartans specifically were just bullies and plunderers who enslaved those they conquered, but you imply that all warriors are thugs if they don't follow your beliefs. Islamic supremacists make the same argument.

[CharlesWayneCT]

But we are also supposed to honor our oaths and vows, and to obey the laws of the civil authorities.

I know these stories sound good. But the ONLY reason these couple of soldiers had a chance to hand out these coins to a few people is because NONE of the other soldiers have done so, and because it’s not allowed.

If the military said “this is fine with us”, by next week Iraq would have us expelled from making any contact with anybody. And if we persisted, we would be condemned by the world for invading a country to spread our religion, and frankly, it would be a valid condemnation at that point.

Question: When you go to hear a concert at your son’s school, do you wait for a quiet moment, and stand up and shout the words to John 3:16, just in case someone in the crowd isn’t a believer? If not, why not — it seems like what you are saying in this thread pretty much would compel you to do so there, and in any other setting where you had the opportunity to tell people the gospel.

Think of all the people you could reach if you went to the movies, bought a ticket, and then stood up front and preached to the people during a quiet part of the movie?

Or consider all the people you could evangelize at the ball fields when your kids are playing sports. Just walk around shouting the gospel to all the parents who are there to watch their children play.

I hope at least one of these examples illustrates to you that some opportunities to witness only exist because nobody abuses the privilege. Imagine if every time you went to the local pool to swim, a Jehovah’s witness was allowed to confront you at the gate and hand you material, or a local Muslim was allowed to walk around the pool harassing you with his brand of religion?

[Rebelbase]

Hey, at least these guys are not leaving tracts on the bathroom urinals.

[philled]

Can you imagine the horror the "student" in the article would experience if he were to learn that the Marine Corps hymn concludes:

"If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines."

[FatherofFive]

"They are trying to convert us to Christianity," said Anad, a Sunni Muslim like most residents of this city in Anbar province. At home, he told his story, and his relatives echoed their disapproval: They'd been given the coins, too, he said...

We should make coins with these two stories on opposite sides.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is clear. Christians will forgive. Muslims will kill. Killing is the nature of their religion.

The example of Mohamed on forgivness Sahih Muslim, Book 17: 4206

There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

The example of Jesus on forgivness (John 8:1-11)

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

[pipecorp]

In that light, how does his actions offend either of these two directives?

He has not brought reproach upon the work he was told to do.

Running away from the call to witness is what brings reproach of the Lord. You appear to be more concerned with the reproach of men.

[SaltyJoe]

Why must Christians not use swords, yet still sell a cloak to buy one (and even train)?

This might be confusing, but there’s Reason for these instructions found in the Bible.

Luke 22:35
He said to them, “When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.
36
He said to them, “But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.
37
For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, namely, ‘He was counted among the wicked’; and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment.”
38
Then they said, “Lord, look, there are two swords here.” But he replied, “It is enough!”

Isaiah 53:12
Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

John 18:11
Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its scabbard. Shall I not drink the cup that the Father gave me?”

Matthew 26:52
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its sheath, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

What gives the wicked pause for harming innocent “doves”? It’s because God punishes the violent with paranoia:

Genesis 4:
10
The LORD then said: “What have you done! Listen: your brother’s blood cries out to me from the soil!
11
Therefore you shall be banned from the soil that opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.
12
If you till the soil, it shall no longer give you its produce. You shall become a restless wanderer on the earth.”
13
Cain said to the LORD: “My punishment is too great to bear.
14
Since you have now banished me from the soil, and I must avoid your presence and become a restless wanderer on the earth, anyone may kill me at sight.”

Thus, if those ignorant of Jesus’ Love aren’t willing to love thy neighbor out of obedience to God, then the wicked shall avoid harming their neighbors out of fear for revenge.

That’s why many Bible thumping Christians have weapons and even the Pope has a Vatican Swiss Guard that uses deadly force to halt would be assassins.

[omega4179]

Muslims accused of proselytizing 632AD-2008AD

[XR7]

Can you imagine the horror the "student" in the article would experience if he were to learn that the Marine Corps hymn concludes...?

Or, our National Anthem!

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power * that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

* Francis Scott Key was not talking about Mohammed's moon-god here.

[freema]

http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter.shtml

[freema]

Don’t mind me. I’m in one of those moods : O

[donna]

Sparta valued eugenics, pederasty, and a serf caste system for Helots.

You’re right, I’m wrapped up in the Christian absolutes that have been the standard for our military.

Take that away, and we’ve got Sparta’s army.

[HKMk23]

Running away from the call to witness is what brings reproach of the Lord.

I'm not asking this MArine -- nor any other -- to run away. I'm pointing out that injecting the gospel into every encounter with another human being, without regard for "situational awareness" is a baldfaced exhibition of foolishness. It'd be like standing up in the middle of a City Council meeting discussion about citywide tree trimming, and reciting "The Roman Road" to salvation, or taking the floor at a meeting of a Corporation Board of Directors an launching into "The Four Spiritual Laws".

Circus acts like that will get you nowhere, but meet with a city Councilman over coffee, and show some genuine concern for how his life is going...you might win a soul into The Kingdom. Spend some time on the golf course with that corporate CFO, and you might actually get a great change to share your testimony; maybe lead her to Christ.

Time and place. WISDOM honors time and place. YES present the gospel, but DO IT with WISDOM.

We are not called to be little gospel mini-guns, perpetually and indiscriminately spouting the gospel at every breathing entity 24/7/365.

What this Marine did was foolish because he is currently under the terms of an oath, which he has bound himself by wilfully, in the sight of God and man, and that oath demands obedience to military protocols proscribing proselytizing, and because that oath, being wilfully made, stands inviolate before the Throne of Heaven, for this Marine to disobey the protocols that govern his service is to violate his oath before God.

Now let me take this whole deal another direction. I'd be willing to bet that the whole situation would have never made press had the Marine NOT passed the coin publicly, at the checkpoint. Converting from Islam -- even CONSIDERING it -- is a deadly serious matter for those people, so even the act of willingly receiving gospel material in public is a risky proposition. Given that, how is it at all an expression of the love of God for this Marine to put this Iraqi on the spot in public like that? It's not only unwise, he could be jeopardizing this poor guys LIFE.

Now, done PRIVATELY, apart from the public view -- that's a different matter. I have sources in-country who relate to me that the Iraqi people are VERY curious about Christianity; they really want to know about it, but one-on-one; almost NEVER in a group setting.

You appear to be more concerned with the reproach of men.

Proof that God sees the heart, but you do not.