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Pat Buchanan Defends Hitler's Invasion of Poland
littlegreenfootballs.com ^ | May 21, 2008

Posted on 05/21/2008 6:49:34 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY

Last week we noted the bizarre arguments of Seattle Times editorial writer Bruce Ramsey, who tried so hard to defend Barack Obama against President Bush’s “appeasement” speech that he actually ended up defending Hitler for annexing Austria. His exact words were: “What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable.”

If you think that’s an ahistorical pretzel of monumental proportions, though, you ain’t seen nothin’ — because here comes Pat Buchanan. According to old Pat, not only was the Anchluss not a problem, Hitler’s invasion of Poland was also perfectly understandable, given the Poles’ refusal to negotiate.

Those darned stubborn Poles were responsible for starting World War II, according to Pat: Bush Plays the Hitler Card.

German tanks, however, did not roll into Poland until a year later, Sept. 1, 1939. Why did the tanks roll? Because Poland refused to negotiate over Danzig, a Baltic port of 350,000 that was 95 percent German and had been taken from Germany at the Paris peace conference of 1919, in violation of Wilson’s 14 Points and his principle of self-determination.

Hitler had not wanted war with Poland. He had wanted an alliance with Poland in his anti-Comintern pact against Joseph Stalin.

But the Poles refused to negotiate. Why? Because they were a proud, defiant, heroic people and because Neville Chamberlain had insanely given an unsolicited war guarantee to Poland. If Hitler invaded, Chamberlain told the Poles, Britain would declare war on Germany.

From March to August 1939, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. But the Poles, confident in their British war guarantee, refused. So, Hitler cut his deal with Stalin, and the two invaded and divided Poland.

The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.


TOPICS: Editorial; Germany; Russia; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: appeasement; appeaser; buchanan; coughlinjunior; dhimmi; dhimmitude; europeanunion; germany; jackbootedfascist; mullahpat; nato; patbuchanan; pitchforkpat; poland; russia; t34; unitedkingdom; ussr; waronterror; worldwarii
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To: r9etb
Pat says flat-out that none of the unpleasantness would have happened at all, but for those awful Poles' unwillingness to negotiate about Danzig

Flat out you say. Really? Where?

161 posted on 05/22/2008 12:14:52 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
Flat out you say. Really? Where?

Why did the tanks roll? Because Poland refused to negotiate...

162 posted on 05/22/2008 12:22:49 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: AndyJackson
Why do folks have so much difficulty reading the actual words written and not reading words that were not written?

Their hatred for Pat is so great their minds were made up before they even read the article.

163 posted on 05/22/2008 12:37:21 PM PDT by am452 (In order to ensure the quality of your patriotism, your conversation may be monitored.)
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To: AndyJackson
Flat out you say. Really? Where?

It's been posted at least three times already:

"The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror."

What's clearly being said is that if the Poles rolled over and negotiated away Danzig that maybe all the death and destruction that followed might have been avoided. Given Hitler's prior adventures how could anyone believe such a thing unless they're a fool or an apologist? Pat is smart enough to know what he's saying and also capable of coming up with better analogies when discussing how American administrations should deal with their enemies so why doesn't he?

164 posted on 05/22/2008 12:40:21 PM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Just so, following our previous analogy we state: "Why did the rapist murder the girl? Because she refused to negotiate his demands."

In stating this we have no more "justified" the murder of the girl than Pat has the rape of Poland? Stating that either girls or foreign governments might, backed into impossible corners, have a chance at survival through negotiation, does not "justify" what happens either. Both might likewise question the actionability of absolute guarantees from police, local or international.

165 posted on 05/22/2008 12:41:27 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Reaganwuzthebest
What's clearly being said is that if the Poles rolled over and negotiated away Danzig that maybe all the death and destruction that followed might have been avoided.

Pat says this where? His only conclusion is that negotiation could not have worsened Polland's position as it suffered the worst possible outcome without negotiation.

The parallel that I think Pat is trying to draw, however, in raising the case of Polland is over the issue of relying on absolute 3rd party guarantees. In this repsect there is a clear parallel between the position of Poland then and the position that Israel might be in, today, as a consequence of Iran flexing its muscles. A foolish person might read Bush's statements as an absolute guarantee to Israel just as Poland foolishly took Chamberline's futile promises as a guarantee.

166 posted on 05/22/2008 12:51:08 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: am452
their minds were made up before they even read the article.

This knee jerk hyperreaction to all of their perceived enemies is the downfall American conservatism. While conservatism is reasonable and defensible, many of its adherents are totally unreasoning, and bring such scorn upon themselves that the cause has become repulsive to many. I am not here to save Pat Buchanan whom I think about not once every two years. I am here to save the habit of reason upon which conservatism depends.

167 posted on 05/22/2008 12:59:16 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
Pat would be blaming the girl for her own murder and the murder of her family, if you want to use an analogy.
168 posted on 05/22/2008 1:13:56 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
So, you conclude, based upon my language, explaining why the rapist murdered the girl, that I have justified the rapist. Funny thing because this is what prosecutor's have to explain every day. If the rapist murdered the girl because she refused to negotiate his demands, he is guilty of first degree murder and goes to the gas chamber. If a man murders a girl because he is insane, he escapes conviction and goes to the insane asylum. So, what you call justification is in fact the required premeditation for a conviction of murder.

And yours is the kind of logic upon which the conservative cause is supposed to depend?

169 posted on 05/22/2008 1:19:00 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
So, you conclude, based upon my language, explaining why the rapist murdered the girl, that I have justified the rapist.

No, I conclude from Pat's language...

The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

...that Pat blames Poland for the war. If only they had negotiated, the tanks would never have rolled. That Pat thinks they deserved what happened.

Do you agree with Pat's "logic"?

170 posted on 05/22/2008 1:24:08 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
What I don't agree with is the logic of your own conclusion which you attempt to stuff into Pat's mouth even though it is not his conclusion, because that is not Pat's argument. Pat is not arguing about Hitler's choices and the morality thereof. He is arguing Poland's choices, which could be laid out as game-theory would suggest as follows:

Option 1: Stand intransigent and rely on Chamberlain's guarantees. Outcome 1: Chamberalain's word was worthless, Poland was devastated, its population decimated or worse, the country was divided, and suffered 50 years of communist oppression.

Option 2: Recognise we are in an untenable position and try to negotiate something. Outcome 2: Historically unknowable since we took option 1, which turned out to be the worst of all possible worlds.

None of that analysis is moral absolution or justification of Hitler.

171 posted on 05/22/2008 1:32:20 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Toddsterpatriot
<>If only they had negotiated, the tanks would never have rolled. That Pat thinks they deserved what happened.

Again Pat states these conclusions exactly where?

172 posted on 05/22/2008 1:33:10 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
From a historical standpoint, Buchanan is right guys.

Since when did FReepers put knee-jerk emotion over facts and logic?

He's wrong about WWII. The Czechoslovakian experience showed that it was impossible to negotiate with Hitler.

I can certainly understand the desire to avoid piling on, but wrong is wrong, even if everybody else says the same thing.

173 posted on 05/22/2008 1:36:06 PM PDT by x
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To: AndyJackson
If only they had negotiated, the tanks would never have rolled. That Pat thinks they deserved what happened.

Again Pat states these conclusions exactly where?

The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

The war came because they refused to negotiate. That led to the millions of dead. All because they refused to negotiate. If only they were as smart as Pat, WWII wouldn't have begun.

174 posted on 05/22/2008 1:37:51 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: AndyJackson
None of that analysis is moral absolution or justification of Hitler.

Never said it was. Pat blaming Poland for the war is not the same as Pat saying Hitler was justified.

175 posted on 05/22/2008 1:39:49 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Enchante
I have refrained from posting anything on this thread till now.

Magnificent! Thank you for taking the time to set the record straight by an appeal to the simple facts of history.

It is most unfortunate that there are still, and perhaps always will be, elements of the "right" that are so reflexively anti-Jewish that they will defend Hitler (mach shemo!). And is it not very ironic that so many of these defenders of Hitler are "libertarians?" I suppose that makes as much sense as "anarchists" who defend Stalin and Mao.

Unfortunately, I don't think you will get a straight answer, much less change any minds. To some people the defeat of Hitler was "the defeat of the West" just as Israel is the "vatican" of the "new world order."

176 posted on 05/22/2008 1:46:46 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Im-bechuqqotay telekhu; ve'et-mitzvotay tishmeru, va`asiytem 'otam.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

Again my friend. Try logic:

Option 1. Refuse to negotiate. Consequence: millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror

Option 2. Negotiate. Consequence: We don't know. But it could not have been worse than option 1.

Pat only states that Poland made a choice and it had a consequence. It is no different from stating that the girl made the choice not to negotiate with her rapist and as a result of this refusal she was murdered. She made a choice and a consequence followed. It is a simple statement of logic and consequence an is not a moral judgement on either party.

177 posted on 05/22/2008 1:46:46 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Zionist Conspirator
will defend Hitler

Who anywhere near here has defended Hitler's abominations, where and how?

178 posted on 05/22/2008 1:48:02 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
Option 2: Recognise we are in an untenable position and try to negotiate something. Outcome 2: Historically unknowable since we took option 1, which turned out to be the worst of all possible worlds.

But in hindsight we along with Pat can know what Option 2 would have meant for Poland given Hitler's barbarism in other parts of Europe long after Poland had fallen. Look at what he did to Holland after they surrendered.

Having said that Option 1 was the only tenable choice they could make after watching how Hitler had behaved with Czechoslovakia. Pat only compounds his silliness when he then exclaims that had Poland given in there might not have been a war at all.

It's ludicrous on its face and while I do like Pat if he keeps up this kind of reasoning his credibility, what's left of it is going to go down faster than the Luftwaffe did in the Battle of Britain.

179 posted on 05/22/2008 1:50:20 PM PDT by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Enchante
What is missing in all of your condescending apologetics is context, the elementary historical knowledge of the period (the same problem exhibited by Pat Buchanan). He is obviously an apologist for Hitler, because he describes supposedly reasonable demands from Hitler that were refused by those obstinate Poles, with irrational encouragement from Britain (and France, although none of you seem to know that).

Who is apologising for Hitler? Where did Pat or anyone else say that Hitler's demands were reasonable? Do you seriously think that British and French ecouragement of the Poles was reasonable given their compete inability to actually do anything. It is like our encouragement of Hungarian dissidents in 1956. We did nothing could have done very little more than the nothing we did do, and a lot of unfortunate people died and were hauled off to prison as a consequence of our immoral encouragement.

180 posted on 05/22/2008 1:53:18 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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