Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
What? You mean I don’t get #4000 after #3099? Someone’s messing with my counting! Don’t defame my counting!
Elsie...thanks for sticking with this point.
ALL: What folks don't realize is that Smith singled out Presbyterians for special persecution. (The other Christian denominations fall under Smith's alleged query of generic "sects").
Now, as to why Presbyterians everywhere haven't risen up and asked for specifics as to what Smith was condemning them, I haven't a clue. Some will say this is no different than what's gone on for centuries re: the condemnation of one Christian group toward another Christian group. But there's a HUGE difference. When this has happened, I haven't seen said Christian group condemn by name a group and then claim for their statement to be "Scripture." (Mormons have no such back-off grounds).
Here's LDS "Scripture": My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join NONE of them, for they were ALL wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were ALL corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." 20 He again forbade me to join with ANY of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well÷I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History, verses 18-20)
Wow! A 14-year-old lad universally targeting EVERY Presbyterian world-wide! Wow! (Why didn't this statement make the rounds in the 1820s, or the early 1830s?) It was constructed over a dozen years "after the fact."
In the Genesis record, Moses states that the sons of God/ben elohim took wives of the daughters of Adam/bath Adam, before and also after the flood, and nephillim =titans/giants, were born to them.
Gen 6:,1,2 http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=1&version=KJV#1
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=2&version=KJV#2
The angels in heaven do not marry nor take wives nor procreate, but as Jude commented on, from Enoch’s writings, the ben Elohim who did this left their first estate -their place in heaven- and committed fornication with bath Adam, and so those before the flood were chained, as a warning to others.
Others did do it after the flood, anyway, from whence Goliath was descended. And others seem to be going to do it again, in the last days, as Enoch and Daniel seem to imply.
Ping-a-ling-a-ling ... there are several posts prior to this one which you might enjoy thumbing through. Each is connected as a reply to another. The discussion centers upon Enoch and the Book of Jasher. With your knowledge of Charles’s writings I thought you might want to read along.
Thank you for pinging me to this sidebar, dear brother in Christ!
Where has YHWH stated this pray? LXX is nearly identical to the MT after 1600 years. Furthermore, it was the LXX that helped the early church move so quickly into the Greek world and it is cited in the NT far more than Enoch.
Barnabas wrote his epistle after the temple was destroyed, in 70 AD, but you have no proof for a late date for the Epistle of Barnabas.
What proof do you have that I'm wrong? OK, have to do your homework for you again
It is necessary, therefore, to fall back on verses 3-5 of chapter xvi. Reference is here made to the command given by Adrian in A.D. 130 for the reconstruction, in honour of Jupiter, of the Temple at Jerusalem, which had been destroyed by Titus. Adrian had also forbidden the Jews to practise circumcision. The writer of the letter makes allusion to this (ch. ix, 4). The epistle must, consequently, have been written in A.D. 130-131.(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02299a.htm)
Introductory Note to the Epistle of Barnabas
[When it is remembered that no one ascribes the Epistle to the apostolic Barnabas till the times of Clement of Alexandria, and that it is ranked by Eusebius among the "spurious" writings, which, however much known and read in the Church, were never regarded as authoritative, little doubt can remain that the external evidence is of itself weak, and should not make us hesitate for a moment in refusing to ascribe this writing to Barnabas the Apostle.(http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.vi.i.html)
Bottom line - not Barnabas of Paul's partner fame. No apostolic link, not inspired, not scripture. FWIW it can mention enoch all it wants but it is worthless as a proof text for Enoch to be in the canon.
but as Jesus was so versed in Enoch 1
Again, give me the direct citations of 1 Enoch by Jesus - waiting (crickets)
The Didache and Barnabas are also closely connected,
The Didache is mentioned by Eusebius after the books of Scripture (H. E., III, xxv, 4): "Let there be placed among the spuria the writing of the Acts of Paul, the so-called Shepherd and the Apocalypse of Peter, and besides these the Epistle known as that of Barnabas,....
Hint - by spurious Eusebius indicates that they are not factual or fraulent - not inspired, not scripture.
The dream visions are the only things missing so far from the Qumram caves, of that book, and there is yet so much to be discovered in those books that they may find them yet.
It has been what, since 1947, and the enoch materials were all found in cave 4. Nor does this answer why the book of giants was left out of the Ethiopian collection. They would have been found by now in cave 4, they are not there.
Tertullien calls them Scripture,
He is the only one to. Others have referenced Enoch, but never lending it to the level of scripture. Origen denied its authenticity after studying it further.
This is found in Enoch, sir, and not in Isaiah -though Isaiah refers to the statement made by YHWH in Enoch....
, I see you chose sections from the Similitudes. These were not written before the end of the first century ad, they could not have been the source of Isaiah's quote (Isa 45:23) Finally, there is no direct citation of Similitudes here, there are vague inferences that could be attributed to multiple other extra biblical books.
Now I found this little tidbit in Chapt 48
2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits And his name before the Head of Days.
3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.
Was the Son of Man named? When was Jesus named in Heaven? This is an attack on the deity of Jesus. Jesus Himself claimed in Revelation 1:8, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Jesus is Eternal, without beginning or end (John 1:1). Head of Days? Lord of Spirits? These terms are NOT found in the Bible. As I said, there are good reasons Enoch was left out. Here's more
Chapter 69:8-12
8 ...And the fourth was named Penemue: he taught the
9 children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom. And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to
10 eternity and until this day. For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation
11 to their good faith with pen and ink. For men were created exactly like the angels, to the intent that they should continue pure and righteous, and death, which destroys everything, could not have taken hold of them, but through this their knowledge they are perishing, and through this power
12 it is consuming me.
What ... man's wisdom came from a demon named Penemue? That's crazy! Did ink and paper cause the fall of the human race? Whoa ... I'd better through all my fine-point pens away immediately! It was Adam's sin that brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12); not evil literature. Mankind is inherently evil of himself, prone to the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). This isn't scripture, this is bogus, ink and paper weren't even around until very recent and definitely not during the time of Enoch.
And in Chapter 40
9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.
The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches. We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone.
Here are three examples of counter-doctrinal material in Enoch that deny the foundations of Christ's teaching. There is no way these can be reconciled to the Gospel.
Is your fixation for Enoch based upon Elizabeth Clare Prophet's book Fallen Angels and the Origins of Evil?
Only if you take another 3,999 wives & concubines. (You know. Babe Ruth's record was broken by Hank Aaron, which was broken by...) Well, Solomon's record still stands. And surely you haven't missed Delf's lecture series this thread as to how righteous, moral, etc. polygamy is...and that concubinage is basically the same thing as polygamy..."only with less rights for the concubine," intones Delf...
So, MHG, in you wanna hit the 4,000 bride/concu mark, ya better not listen too closely to those "whispers in your ear" (ya know, Elton John's SOMEONE SAVED MY LIFE TONIGHT: Altar bound, hypnotized, sweet freedom whispered in my ear You're a butterfly, and butterflies are free to fly Fly away, high away, bye-bye)
I was trying to remember how the rest of the song went...I think it was something like this:
When I think of those West Texas lights, muggy nights
The curtains drawn in the little room downstairs
Oh Dear Lord, you really should have been there
Sitting like a King perched in your heavenly chair
And it's one more wife, and they don't hear you anymore,
They've all gone crazy lately, our Mormon 'friends' out there
Rolling round the temple basement floor
And someone saved a young girl's life tonight, sugar bear (sugar bear)
These men almost had their hooks in them, didn't they dear Lord?
They nearly had them roped and tied
Altar bound, hypnotized, sweet freedom whispered in their ear
You're a butterfly, and butterflies are free to fly
Fly away, high away, bye-bye
I never realized the passing compound hours
of no evening showers A slip noose hanging in their darkest dreams
These girls are strangled by their haunted social scene
Just a pawn outplayed by dominating play-kings
It's four-o-clock in the morning
D*** it, listen to me good!!!
They're sleeping with themselves tonight
Saved in time, thank God their hope is still alive
And someone saved their life tonight, sugar bear (sugar bear)
They almost had their hooks in them, didn't they dear Lord?
They nearly had them roped and tied
Altar bound, hypnotized, sweet freedom whispered in their ear
You're a butterfly, and butterflies are free to fly
Fly away, high away, bye-bye
And they would have walked head on
Into the deep end of plural-wife river
Clinging to their stockades and bonds
Paying their breeding demands forever
They're coming in the mornin'
With a bus to take you home
Someone saved their life tonight
Someone saved their life tonight
Someone saved their life tonight
Someone saved their life tonight
Someone saved their life tonight
So save your strength and trust the One who's God alone
And someone saved my life tonight, sugar bear (sugar bear)
They almost had their hooks in them, didn't they dear Lord?
They nearly had them roped and tied
Altar bound, hypnotized, sweet freedom whispered in their ear
You're a butterfly, and butterflies are free to fly
Fly away, high away, bye-bye
Oh my! We weren’t so naughty that you had to punish with that horrid song by the fairyboy, were we? I promise to stop counting my way, if you’ll refrain from such cruel and unusual punishment hereafter ... and I don’t mean what joe smith was ‘here after’, he was a pecker prophet, not a prophet of God.
That is so silly he was sharing with his mother who join the Presbyterian church, and when he came back from the grove his question was answered he was told don't join none of them, by the Lord that is when he made the statement to his mother about Presbyterian.
You folks try to make things even when they are not there.
If is your minds who is handed over to a delution with all of your conspiracies theories!
You folks have too much fun playing devils advocate!
I left the Presbytertian church way before I knew about the LDS and my have my own reasons!
Good all of you stop mocking and posting about the LDS and we will stop posting to you!:)
So if god told joe not to join ‘any of them’, why did he join the Methodist Church which threw him out for ‘magic’ reasons?
22 ¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.U Said: Or, I could like you try to claim in a parallel manner that "Nowhere in the Bible is anyone reprimanded for femicide or commanded not to commit femicide."
13 Thou shalt not kill.U Said: Or I could like you try to claim in a parallel manner that "Nowhere is the Bible is anyone reprimanded for genocide or commanded not commit genocide."
a·dul·ter·y
–noun,
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.
po·lyg·a·myIf you are a spouse, you are not committing adultery. Now the question is legality. In Saudi Arabia for example, a man can have four wive legally, in the US only one. In the Bible Solomon had hundreds of wives all legally (not at all attractive IMHO, but it's the extreme that came to mind), In most Christian religions today, a man can have only one.
–noun
1. the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, esp. wife, at one time. Compare bigamy, monogamy.
2. Zoology. the habit or system of mating with more than one individual, either simultaneously or successively.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?The Bible says that men will be judged by their works: Rev. 20: 12-13
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.So called Christians do not understand these scriptures which contain an essential part of Gods plan, they think that men die and are judged immediately, I testify to you htat there is a space between death and judement; a paradise for those who repent in this life, a hell for those who do not. Those who accept the the Baptism for the dead as practiced anciently and today can move from Spirit prison to spirit paradise, those who refuse this merciful Gift from God will remain where they are until judgment day, on that day all will stand before Jesus (not Joseph, Jesus) and be judged by Jesus according to their works, exactly as the Bible says.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Godzilla, excellent point by point refutation of Delf in 3,033.
Members of the Smith family could very likely have been attracted to attend meetings held in that community in order to investigate Methodism, to socialize, and to sell goods which they had produced. One contemporary of Joseph Smith, Orsamus Turner, who resided in Palmyra for several years prior to 1822, wrote that "after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he [Joseph Smith] was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings." fn
Another contemporary who lived in Palmyra in 1820, Pomeroy Tucker, verified the religious excitement that was occurring in that part of America at the time of the First Vision. "Protracted revival meetings," he wrote, were customary in some of the churches,
...and Smith frequented those of different denominations, sometimes professing to participate in their devotional exercises.... At one time he joined the probationary class of the Methodist Church in Palmyra.... and he soon withdrew from the class. The final conclusion announced by him, was, that all sectarianism was fallacious.
Joseph Smith's First Vision: Confirming Evidences and Contemporary Accounts Backman, Milton V., Jr.
I am a born again in Christ, water baptized Believer, who has been saved for over 38 years, and who loves the Word of God and My Savior, the Word in flesh, and since my children are grown and gone I have time to study the Word deeper than ever I could when I was a busy mom of seven, with a hubby also.
Hubby and I are able to do the things one cannot do so easily in the busier years, and I have never been involved with any such things as you asked about, and only promote Jesus Christ as the only name and way to be saved and inherit eternal life and escape the wrath of God, which is eternal.
~~
>>Where has YHWH stated this pray? LXX is nearly identical to the MT after 1600 years. Furthermore, it was the LXX that helped the early church move so quickly into the Greek world and it is cited in the NT far more than Enoch.<,
He stated it in the curses given to Israel because of their wilfull rebellions against Him, in the OT -really, you need to get an understanding of the relationship of YHWH to His namesake people, and why He meant what He said, and what their status is, as they stumble in darkness, without understanding, since the Glory departed their temple as recorded in Ezekiel 1-10. When their Light came, in flesh of second creation, they rejected Him, as a nation, and their “house was left to them desolate”, and will continue to be so until they say: “Blessed is He who comes in the name of YHWH”. Hosea tells, in a parable, of His love for them and what He is doing for them at this time, and how He is caring for them though they do not know Him -yet.
>>LXX is nearly identical to the MT after 1600 years. Furthermore, it was the LXX that helped the early church move so quickly into the Greek world and it is cited in the NT far more than Enoch.<<
So?
LXX includes many books which are not cited one time in the NT.
Enoch is.
Enoch is not a “Jewish” book, but a book which the Egyptians had, also, as other tribes of the world did, as sons of Enoch through Noah, also -so why should it be specifically part of the LXX anyway? It’s bigger than Israel. It’s for the world.
The Book of Jasher is cited in the NT and in the OT, yet it is not in the LXX and it was not just a history of the Jews, but of all the tribes from Adam to Joshua.
Your Enoch is not the Ethiopian Enoch, and is not found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
You are giving false information here.
On the name of of the Son of Man, Israel, it was not revealed from the beginning. That a New Name is given in which we in Adam can be adopted, because of His ransom of us as Kinsman is the theme of enoch’s seeing Him in heaven, as the hidden in God from the beginning Son of Man, who was to come, and who is now come.
When He appeared to Samson’s parents, pre-incarnate, and they asked His name, It was still secret. When He appeared to Jacob, in Genesis 32, He at that moment revealed it to Jacob, and Jacob got the name of the New Man who was to come, from the beginning, as a sign of the adoption to come.
Jacob understood that He ahd seen God, and He made a memorial altar to His name, in Genesis 33; El-ElOHE-ISRAEL =God Mighty God, Israel.
Whoever is born into His Living Spirit has the Revelation of His name, and they are saved in His name of the second Man. We call Him Jesus which in the Hebrew is “Salvation”, but the Father called His name “Israel”, as the second creation Man, and He gives to all His own adopted sons His own New Man name.
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