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Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin
Telegraph ^ | 25 Feb 2008 | Jonathan Petre

Posted on 02/25/2008 12:33:54 PM PST by BGHater

The Oxford laboratory that declared the Turin Shroud to be a medieval fake 20 years ago is investigating claims that its findings were wrong.

The head of the world-renowned laboratory has admitted that carbon dating tests it carried out on Christendom's most famous relic may be inaccurate.

 
The Turin Shroud on display in Turin's Cathedral
Carbon dating tests carried out 20 years ago on the Shroud of Turin suggested that the relic was a forgery

Professor Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford University Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, said he was treating seriously a new theory suggesting that contamination had skewed the results.

Though he stressed that he would be surprised if the supposedly definitive 1988 tests were shown to be far out - especially "a thousand years wrong" - he insisted that he was keeping an open mind.

The development will re-ignite speculation about the four-metre linen sheet, which many believe bears the miraculous image of the crucified Christ.

The original carbon dating was carried out on a sample by researchers working separately in laboratories in Zurich and Arizona as well as Oxford.

To the dismay of Christians, the researchers concluded that the shroud was created between 1260 and 1390, and was therefore likely to be a forgery devised in the Middle Ages.

Even Anastasio Alberto Ballestrero, the then Cardinal of Turin, conceded that the relic was probably a hoax.

There have been numerous theories purporting to explain how the tests could have produced false results, but so far they have all been rejected by the scientific establishment.

Many people remain convinced that the shroud is genuine.

Prof Ramsey, an expert in the use of carbon dating in archeological research, is conducting fresh experiments that could explain how a genuinely old linen could produce "younger" dates.

The results, which are due next month, will form part of a documentary on the Turin Shroud that is being broadcast on BBC 2 on Easter Saturday.

David Rolfe, the director of the documentary, said it was hugely significant that Prof Ramsey had thought it necessary to carry out further tests that could challenge the original dating.

He said that previous hypotheses, put forward to explain how the cloth could be older than the 1988 results suggested, had been "rejected out of hand".

"The main reason is that the contamination levels on the cloth that would have been needed to distort the results would have to be equivalent to the actual sample itself," he said.

"But this new theory only requires two per cent contamination to skew the results by 1,500 years. Moreover, it springs from published data about the behaviour of carbon-14 in the atmosphere which was unknown when the original tests were carried out 20 years ago."

Mr Rolfe added that the documentary, presented by Rageh Omaar, the former BBC correspondent, would also contain new archeological and historical evidence supporting claims that the shroud was a genuine burial cloth.

The film will focus on two other recorded relics, the Shroud of Constantinople, which is said to have been stolen by Crusaders in 1204, and the Shroud of Jerusalem that wrapped Jesus's body and which, according to John's Gospel, had such a profound effect when it was discovered.

According to Mr Rolfe, the documentary will produce convincing evidence that these are one and the same as the Shroud of Turin, adding credence to the belief that it dates back to Christ's death.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: shroud; tests; turin
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To: Swordmaker

ping


81 posted on 02/25/2008 4:53:36 PM PST by lonevoice (John McCain was a Kinoki foot pad in the Reagan Revolution)
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To: Alamo-Girl; albee; AnalogReigns; AnAmericanMother; Angelas; AniGrrl; annyokie; Aquinasfan; ...
It's Shroud of Turin season again... it happens every year before Easter.

The Head of the Oxford lab that did 1/4th of the 1988 C14 tests on the shroud admits the tests might be invalid... but suggests only 2% contamination from something could have skewed the results. His statements and this article ignore the already peer-reviewed findings that show that the 1988 C14 tests are invalid because they tested samples that included between 40 and 60% original Shroud linen mixed with between 60 and 40% 16th Century rewoven material.

My viewpoint is that the Oxford lab will complete their tests (done NOT on Shroud material but on other materials) and conclude their tests were accurate... which they were on what they tested: a melange of old and newer material.

PING!

If you want on or off the Shroud of Turin Ping List, Freepmail me.


82 posted on 02/25/2008 5:01:49 PM PST by Swordmaker (We can fix this, but you're gonna need a butter knife, a roll of duct tape, and a car battery.)
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To: Cicero
Arguing with the shroud denyers is much like arguing with committed Darwinists... Goracles.... They are right, argument closed, no other opinions allowed. That’s not science.


83 posted on 02/25/2008 5:02:22 PM PST by maine-iac7 (",,,but you can't fool all of the people all the time" LINCOLN)
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To: BGHater
"There have been numerous theories purporting to explain how the tests could have produced false results, but so far they have all been rejected by the scientific establishment.
Actually, this statement in the article is not accurate.

Peer reviewed scientific research, published in a prestigious scientific journal, has provided a theory that has been proven to be true... the tests produced false results for the age of the Shroud because they tested a sample that was a mixture of older (perhaps, even most likely First Century) with newer (Probably 16th century patching rewoven into the original) material.

84 posted on 02/25/2008 5:07:10 PM PST by Swordmaker (We can fix this, but you're gonna need a butter knife, a roll of duct tape, and a car battery.)
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To: SpringheelJack
Blood

I'll call ya one and raise ya one -

-

http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-02.htm

Alan Adler was an expert on porphyrins, the types of colored compounds seen in blood, chlorophyll, and many other natural products. He and Dr. John Heller, MD, studied the blood flecks on the STURP sampling tapes [Heller and Adler, Applied Optics 19, (16) 1980]. They converted the heme into its parent porphyrin, and they interpreted the spectra taken of blood spots by Gilbert and Gilbert. They concluded that the blood flecks are real blood. In addition to that, the x-ray-fluorescence spectra taken by STURP showed excess iron in blood areas, as expected for blood. Microchemical tests for proteins were positive in blood areas but not in any other parts of the Shroud.

http://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.com/2007/06/bogus-shroud-of-turin-9-bloodstains-on.html

"pathologist Dr Pier Luigi Baima-Bollone" has "not only confirmed it to be blood, but confidently identified it as the AB group" which "is comparatively rare among Europeans ... its incidence is 18 per cent among Jewish populations of the present-day Near East":

85 posted on 02/25/2008 5:17:38 PM PST by maine-iac7 (",,,but you can't fool all of the people all the time" LINCOLN)
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To: BGHater
,I.Besides, Jesus came from an extremely wealthy family and could have eaten whatever he wanted for nourishment.

I didn't know that carpenters in classical Roman times were extremely wealthy.

86 posted on 02/25/2008 5:18:24 PM PST by curmudgeonII
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To: Red Badger
70 inches, 5’10”, a little tall for a Jewish carpenter from 2000 years ago?.........

Actually, no. Studies done by archaeologists of bodies found in 1st Century Jewish cemeteries in Jerusalem show that the average height of male skeletons is only 3/8 of an inch shorter than average modern American males (5' 8.5"). A height of 5'10" is well within the normal range of variation.

"A more recent excavation in Meiron in the area of Galilee, more skeletal remains from the 1st through the 4th centuries, revealed an adult male height average of five feet nine inches."
Average height of Romans of the period was a little less.
87 posted on 02/25/2008 5:23:53 PM PST by Swordmaker (We can fix this, but you're gonna need a butter knife, a roll of duct tape, and a car battery.)
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To: grey_whiskers
But such an approach does not square with other properties of the shroud, i.e. the image is not merely on the surface of the fibers.

What you're really talking about is technique. Joseph Nickell's recreation did get deeper into the fibers than the Shroud itself does, but the medieval artisan who made it may have used a variation that did not imprint the image as deep.

88 posted on 02/25/2008 5:24:10 PM PST by SpringheelJack
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To: grey_whiskers

Oh-kay.


89 posted on 02/25/2008 5:25:54 PM PST by SpringheelJack
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To: AndyTheBear

Faith, in a spritual sense, is a belief in the truth of something even if it defies the disproof provided by one’s own senses. For instance I believe that the consecrated Host is the Body of Christ with every fiber of my being. Faith is a gift and cannot be over-ridden by the Scientific Method or by the jeers of those unfortunate enough not to be granted so great a gift.


90 posted on 02/25/2008 5:28:53 PM PST by Dionysius (Jingoism is no vice.)
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To: curmudgeonII
I didn't know that carpenters in classical Roman times were extremely wealthy.

Joseph of Arimathea, Christ's uncle was a wealthy tin miner. It was Joseph's tomb, never used before where Christ was laid after His death on the cross. We are told little about where Christ was and went prior to His last three + years of life in a flesh body.

91 posted on 02/25/2008 5:30:45 PM PST by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: BGHater; All

Here’s a nice link with lot’s of info and pics.

http://www.shroudstory.com/


92 posted on 02/25/2008 5:32:22 PM PST by fatima
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To: maine-iac7
There could be a very good reason for that - It's existence was protected for centuries to keep it from being confiscated and or destroyed - hate to burst the bubble, but everything that happened back then did not make it into the scriptures, and many books of scripture that the early church was using were burned as a result of the Nicence Council - who decided which books ,would and which would not, be compiled to become the Bible.

Disputes about Scripture left a long public record over several centuries, spoken of by writers like Irenaeus, Eusebius, and Athanasius, plus others ranging from the famous to the obscure -- exactly something that the Shroud of Turin lacks. The idea that all knowledge of the Shroud was hidden by a secret cabal from the death of Jesus to the Second Millennium is positively ludicrous. What other conspiracy was so successful, and so motiveless? (The church during that period prized relics when they could find them, the "discovery" of the True Cross in about 320 by the Emperor's mother was renowned.)

93 posted on 02/25/2008 5:34:48 PM PST by SpringheelJack
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To: maine-iac7
Right back at ya, buddy -

There is no blood on the Shroud: all the forensic tests specific for blood have failed18 (although some investigators19 unrigorously concluded that blood was present after conducting numerous forensic tests for iron, protein, albumin, etc., which came up positive because these materials are indeed on the Shroud in the form of tempera paint). Old blood is not bright red, and no amount of bilirubin20 can explain that away. Real blood mats on hair, and does not form perfect rivulets and spiral flows. Real blood does not contain red ochre, vermilion, and alizarin red pigments. Real blood and its organic derivatives have refractive indices much less than red ochre or vermilion, and they can be easily distinguished using Becke line movement under a light microscope. McCrone's examination of the red particles on the Shroud samples revealed no blood or blood derivatives.

http://www.freeinquiry.com/skeptic/shroud/as/schafersman.html

94 posted on 02/25/2008 5:38:16 PM PST by SpringheelJack
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To: Just mythoughts; curmudgeonII
Joseph of Arimathea, Christ's uncle was a wealthy tin miner.

You're inserting late, late medieval legend into the ancient 1st century accounts. If Joseph of Arimathea was a wealthy tin miner it is not known to history, nor is there any reason to suspect he was. Same goes for that "Christ's uncle" business.

95 posted on 02/25/2008 5:41:37 PM PST by SpringheelJack
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks Swordmaker - always love your posts.


96 posted on 02/25/2008 5:42:00 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: SpringheelJack
Your information is outdated.

I googled Shroud of Turin and found this from a skeptic site. No need for red ochre...Maillard reactions fit the actual image on the shroud much better.

They have the *disadvantage* from your point of view of still remaining consistent with (but not disposative of) the authenticity of the shroud; OTOH, they require no miraculous explanation either...which should help you with your worldview. :-)

What is a Maillard reaction (Chemistry): Shroud of Turin FAQ

Cheers!

97 posted on 02/25/2008 5:44:26 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: SpringheelJack
You're inserting late, late medieval legend into the ancient 1st century accounts. If Joseph of Arimathea was a wealthy tin miner it is not known to history, nor is there any reason to suspect he was. Same goes for that "Christ's uncle" business.

Did NOT Joseph of Arimathea collect Christ's body, only a relative could have done that act? Now where did Mary get taken to.... where did the legends of the tin miner come from?

98 posted on 02/25/2008 5:46:09 PM PST by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Tallguy; SpringheelJack
Check out Post #310 on the thread linked below. This topic came up here on FR a couple of years ago, and the information I've posted there offers some interesting insight into the subject:

Click Here

99 posted on 02/25/2008 5:55:04 PM PST by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: sonic109
Jesus from a rich family ?

Yep = looking like it.

The word that was, on purpose or through error, written for 'carpenter' translates as 'builder' = meaning a contractor...and in Jesus time, the city of Sepphoris was being rebuilt by Rome - just a bit over 3 miles from Nazareth...a shining marble city on a hill, easily seen - and an easy walk - from Nazareth.

It was the crossroads of travel and trade from many countries, Greek and Latin were spoken.

Scholars are now postulating that Jesus and his 'father' Joseph may well have found much lucrative work there.

As well, Joseph of Arimathea, widely thought to be Jesus' uncle, was a wealthy man and member of the Pharisees. His fortune came from tin mines in England.

Remember, he went to, and received from, Pilot permission to take Jesus' body for burial. Law restricted that privilege only of kin of a crucified "criminal" = They were evidently not a poor family - and that does not, in any way, detract from Jesus or His mission ...

100 posted on 02/25/2008 5:55:20 PM PST by maine-iac7 (",,,but you can't fool all of the people all the time" LINCOLN)
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