Mormons Aren't Christians (Columnist also calls Luther a heretic)

Dallas Morning News ^ | 12/16/07 | Rod Dreher

[Mobile Vulgus]

Mormons aren't Christians ...

... and other thoughts on religion and politics sure to get your blood boiling

Herewith, my views on religion and the politics of the present moment, with something to offend just about everyone:

1. Mormons aren't Christians. I don't mean that as a criticism, only as a descriptive phrase. When Mormons claim Jesus Christ as their savior, there's no reason to doubt their sincerity and good will, or even to deny that they are in some way followers of Christ. Yet Mormonism rejects foundational doctrines of traditional Christian orthodoxy, such that it is impossible to reconcile with normative Christianity.

2. Anyway, the Latter-day Saints church teaches that all other Christian churches are apostate. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?

3. Theologically, this is a big deal. But politically, so what? Mormons vote like Southern Baptists and come down on the same side of most issues of public morality like conservative Christians do. If you're a socially conservative lawmaker, wouldn't you rather have a Mormon in your legislative foxhole than a Kennedy-style cafeteria Catholic or progressive mainline Protestant? I'm no Romney fan, but is there really no meaningful political difference between Good-Mormon Mitt and Bad-Catholic Rudy, to say nothing of Liberal-Protestant Hillary?

4. There are plenty of good reasons for conservative Christians not to vote for Mr. Romney, but his religious beliefs are not among them. Do Christians want to be in the position of rejecting a candidate whose political views and moral values they agree with, solely because they don't like his religion?

[DelphiUser]

Stop your calls, please. We have a winner!

Thank you, I'd like to thank the academy...

LOL!

Thanks for noticing! and Merry Christmas (I don't think we can say that too much this time of year)

[DelphiUser]

The Trinity is the central doctrine of Christianity.

Interesting, since the word Trinity never appears in the Bible, and was not created until AD 325. So the Apostles and Jesus according to you were not Christians? ROTFLOL!

You can read about it in the Catholic church's own records of the Event, here.

You also might want to check out Arian controversy Which is what the Council at Nicea was convened to resolve. (Convened by Constantine, a Pagan BTW)

I for one am amazed at the ignorance of So called "Christians" who don't know their won histories and are secure in their ignorance.

[DelphiUser]

The LDS church is not Christian because it is not Trinitarian. Of course, they say the same of us so the circle is not unbroken.

We say that you are wrong, even that some of your creeds are an abomination to God, but we do not deny that you believe in Christ.

[fproy2222]

There is no “bigotry” in saying Mormons aren’t Christians. unless, of course, you just wish to shut down the discussion and cast off name calling as some sort of “proof” that you are right?

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Just pulled this out of the dictionary.

bigot:
a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
(http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/bigot)

It does say I am a bigot for dogitly calling you folks Christians, Just like the rest, who are also prejudice because of their own definition, are also bigots.

[USS Alaska]

You obviously haven’t a clue what you are on about. The issue of Mormonism being Christian or not is not a gamesaying like what YOU did. It is based on theological arguments. Are you versed on the arguments? If not, then you and others like you, CLEARLY have NO basis on which to opine.

My neighbor of 20 years is a Christian and belongs to the Mormon sect.

Glenn Beck, with 10 million listeners proclaims his Christianity as well as his Mormonism.

Mitt Romney, proclaims both his Christianity as well as his Mormonism.

But you vulgar mover, claim to be a theological expert.

I am "versed on the arguments" and I and others like me, CLEARLY have EVERY basis on which to opine.

Opine means MY OPINION, and buttholes like you would allow your opinion but have no latitude for others that would disagree.

As they say in Australia, piss off, mate.

[Campion]

In Rod Dreher’s biography he describes himself as a Catholic activist.

I think that bio may be dated. Dreher left the Catholic church for Eastern Orthodoxy last year, IIRC.

[Frumanchu]

We say that you are wrong, even that some of your creeds are an abomination to God, but we do not deny that you believe in Christ.

It's not a question of whether we believe in Christ...it's a question of which Christ we believe in.

[PetroniusMaximus]

God having sex with Mary? Mormons believe in the Virgin Birth, hello, anybody understand the meaning of the word VIRGIN over there?

 "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers." ( Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

Christians say Jesus' birth was the result of the Holy Spirit - that it was a spiritual event. For the  Journal of Discourses to teach that it was the result of NATURAL ACTION leave little to the imagination.


Satan and Jesus being Brothers, I can prove that all of us are brothers with the Bible, so of course Jesus, (God's biological son), and any created being (thus being a child) can be called brothers.

I know for a fact that you can not prove that from the Christian Scriptures. But I would welcome the opportunity to discuss it with you.


"But the ninety degree out of whack part is it's not significant doctrine, and many churches have this as a part of their "obscure doctrines""

It may not be significant to you, but it is very significant to Christians. This is because it touches o­n the primary question of the New Testament, namely, Who is Jesus. Is he, as Mormons claim, a man who evolves into God (like all men can), or is he the unique, eternal God in the form of a man? What you find to be an "obscure doctrine" is central to all Christian belief.


"so it's o­nly value is to shock the uneducated."

Have you considered the idea that it is shocking, not because it is misrepresented by others, but because, to anyone familiar with the Scriptures it is, in fact, shocking?


" Not a very Christlike approach, IMHO."

This evidences a misunderstanding. The New Testament is full of example of people addressing and correcting error. Paul got HOT about people who were trying to change or diminish the person or work of Jesus Christ. Exposing erroneous beliefs is not unChristlike.


DelphiUser, were you raised Mormon or did you convert from another set of beliefs?

[Soliton]

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit”

What is this then? Did I call it something wrong?

[purpleraine]

Must be a mormon running for some elected office. Time to play, my-God-is-better-than-your-God.

[ZULU]

“2. Anyway, the Latter-day Saints church teaches that all other Christian churches are apostate. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?”

I’m a Protestant. That make me a “heretic” in Catholic eyes. So i should hate Catholics?

I think we are getting a little carried away in emphazing the distinctions between various flavors of Christianity, and Mormons. Mormons may not technically be Christians, but they are obviously an outgrowth of Christianity as Christianity is based on Judaism or Jewish scriptures.

We ALL have to wake up to the fact that Mormons, Christians, Jews, and even Buddhists and Hindus, etc, are ALL of us, targets of the fanatical followers of the Arabian Moon God and his pedophilic “prophet”.

[Soliton]

“Also, Christianity, true Christianity has been around for 2000 years, but Mormonism has only been around 200 years.....so why should anyone think it’s the TRUE religion?”

Then Judaism is the true religion by your argument.

[AppyPappy]

We don’t say that you don’t believe in Christ. You just have Him wrong. Muslims believe in Christ.

[fproy2222]

Er, that’s kinda the point - Mormons don’t believe women are equal before god. I can’t vote for a politician who believes that.

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This is from my Bible, what does yours say about the “equality” of men and woman.

(Ephesians 5:22-29.)

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

[Binghamton_native]

"...that Jesus was either a madman or was the Son of God he claimed to be; since he obviously wasn’t a madman, he must have been the Son of God."

Here is the exact quote:

"Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse."

[DelphiUser]

Ah, but what does this really mean? Is Jesus the one and only God manifest in the flesh, or one of the gods manifest in the flesh?

He is our one and only God manifested in the flesh, you may worship whatever God you please, but as for me, I will have no other God before The God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob and of Moses. There was a commandment about that, and the very fact that there is such a command says there are other Gods...

As I understand it, Mormons believe in multiple gods, and that they can, in fact, become a god themselves some day. That would make them non-Christian.

I believe in multiple Fathers, that does not make them my father, I also believe that I can become a father some day, that does not make my your father.

I can see why you are confused, stick with simpler doctrines.

When you talk about our doctrines, you don't sound clear, and I always think of this song...
Click to hear the Song sung by Ray Stevens...




I'M MY OWN GRANDPA
Recorded by Lonzo and Oscar on Nov. 1947
Written by M. Jaffe and D. Latham

It sounds funny, I know, but it really is so
Oh, I'm my own grandpa!

CHORUS
I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know, but it really is so
Oh, I'm my own grandpa.

Now many, many years ago when I was twenty-three
I was married to a (widder) who was pretty as can be
This (widder) had a grown up daughter who had hair of red
My father fell in love with her and soon they two were wed.

This made my dad my son-in-law and changed my very life
My daughter was my mother for she was my father's wife
To complicate the matter even though it brought me joy
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy.

My little baby then became a brother-in-law to dad
And so became my uncle though it made me very sad
For if he was my uncle then that also made him brother
Of the (widder's) grown up daughter who of course was my step-mother.

CHORUS

Father's wife then had a son who kept him on the run
And he became my grandchild for he was my daughter's son
My wife is now my mother's mother and it makes me blue
Because although she is my wife, she's my grandmother too.

CHORUS

Now if my wife is my grandmother, then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild
For now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpa.

CHORUS

[DelphiUser]

If you are really interested in knowing more about the Mormon beliefs I suggest you read what FReeper Elsie has posted on this subject. She gets most of her information from the Mormon book itself. It’s quite enlightening.

I was going to just go past your post, until you said Elsie was a Girl, he (it is a he, trust me) uses the name Elsie because his initials are L.C. the rest of your posts is of a consistent nature with this factoid.

It is also considered Good manners to ping someone when talking about them, like this (just add their name to the to line...)

[pepsionice]

The strong religious conservatives have been drawn into a set-up by the Democrats...which this strategy was casually thrown around a year ago...where there was an opportunity to break up the Republican party. Obviously...it is working. The Huck crowd are bound and determine to see a massive loss by the Republican party in November of next year. I’m predicting a 30-percent vote for Huckabee at best. Most of us...in the conservative view...won’t vote for Huckabee, thus driving Obama (my guess) to the winners circle.

You can already feel election night...massive blue blinking lights going on and off...with only seven states voting for the Republicans. It’ll be a pitiful scene that most of us will hate for years.

[MEGoody]

There was a commandment about that, and the very fact that there is such a command says there are other Gods.

Yes, false gods, as in idols. There are no other actual Gods.

I can see why you are confused, stick with simpler doctrines.

LOL Seems like I've hit a nerve or something.

[dmw]

“Also, Christianity, true Christianity has been around for 2000 years, but Mormonism has only been around 200 years.....so why should anyone think it’s the TRUE religion?”

You make a very good point. Simple, yet powerful.