Posted on 12/09/2007 12:49:26 PM PST by aomagrat
Edited on 12/09/2007 12:59:09 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
[I waited 45 seconds and actually posted something substantial--Ed.]
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — At least four people were shot outside of a Colorado Springs church on Sunday, but it was not immediately known whether the shootings were related to an earlier shooting about 70 miles away, authorities said.
The shooting of the kids appears gang-related and in no way resembles what happened at the church, though. Unfortunately, the gang shootings are also yet another type of copy-cats killings themselves.
First of all, you never base a story on one side of anything.
And this guy’s claims must be looked at critically. He obviously was not sound of mind.
Secondly, it seems that your opinions of what were the bases of his problems stem from his being in a Christian household being taught Christian values and beliefs, and because of that, he was taught “lies” and “falsehoods.”
It is apparent to me that you are personally against Christianity and therefore that is coloring YOUR PERCEPTION of reality.
This guy’s perception of realty must also be questioned. He was psychologically ill; anyone with a psychological illness has an impeded sense of ACTUAL REALITY because of their illness. No matter how real they perceive things to be, it is usually not an accurate perception of reality, of the way things actually are. It’s only that way in HIS OWN MIND....
no I didn’t - sorry to hear that....
Won’t he have another round of pardons - next year?
Combine that with his grudge against Christians, and his obvious anger towards G-d and you’ve got a real prescription for disaster there...
==
INDEED.
WELL PUT.
AMEN!
Thanks for the links.
So this shooter had dreams and heard voices....he was evidently demonically oppressed or possessed.
So sad for this family who evidently did all they could to raise this child away from the influences that, in the end, took over in the life of this young man.
I am an oldster who has never been to a rock music concert.
But, of course, rock music does influence those who listen to it. It’s intended to do so.
Some good points, imho.
However, I’m not at all in agreement that he no longer had choice.
. . . there was a certain kind of logic to his convictions . . . a twisted logic but largely sensible from HIS REALITY.
I also am not convined that he was psychotic to the degree so many seem to insist he was.
There evidently was SOME TRUTH to
1. the horrors with his mom
2. the absence of his dad
3. the real and significant hypocrisies of far too many Christians and Christian leaders in his life in too many ways he experienced as personally affronting, abusive, rejecting . . .
4. the satanic music etc. and websites of disaffected Pentecostals et al . . . served to provide a rationale, justification for; reference group; pseudo family etc. harboring and feeding his twisted rationale and rebellions. But it should be kept in mind that in at least some respects to some degree—any sane person would have rebelled against a good measure of what (A) he really experienced and (B) certainly against what he perceived that he was experiencing.
5. He made plenty of very calculated, rather precise, very targeted, very relational, very historically connected choices about who he wanted to exact vengeance on.
6. He made very good choices—from his perspective—about how he was going to achieve a realtively high level of vengeance against large numbers of people associated with the focus of his outrage. Thankfully his plan failed. But it could well have succeeded massively. His plan did not fail because he was an irrational, frothing at the mouth, staggering around, ravingly irratic loon. His plan failed because God had a fine tuned opponent in his way.
7. He made—from his perspective—sensible choices on the net in terms of leaving very pointed outrage very calculated to stab viciously but very surgically and precisely at the heart and core values of his mother and every spiritual leader involved.
I realize that there’s plenty of ‘justification’ to apply various DSM IV labels to his consciousness, behavior, state.
I just do not find those labels anywhere near sufficient descriptors of the whole of what was going on with this kid. I think they are too simplistic; come out of too much of a secular bias; leave out major chunks of this kid’s reality.
I admire your charity and reticence.
However, there’s plenty on the table for me to hazard a large amount of speculations and conjectures. LOL.
There’s actually quite a lot of info in the public domain.
I’ve had to decide folks’ naval careers on a lot less info.
Hearing voices is a sign of mental illness, not demonic possession. This is 2007, not 1007.
Always difficult to deal with but you'll have a lot more luck with modern psychotropic drugs than with an exorcism or cutting a hole in the skull to let the demons out.
It seems inescapable . . .
that there must have been
SOME level
of craziness . . . and quite likely a great lot of it
on the mother’s side.
All consciously well intentioned, no doubt, but grossly misguided . . . AT BEST.
This kid’s darkness did not just spring up in his soul unaided by those around him.
Someone was fanning the flames early on . . . however unwittingly.
In other words, I do NOT believe that 100% of his assertions about his mom are 100% false.
Wow.
Prayers, indeed.
Thx.
Certainly he bears the lions share of responsibility for all his decisions and doings.
Certainly for willfully feeding on death and destruction so intensely for so long.
on the other hand . . .
he did not spring forth from the womb like that. Lots of conditioning etc. went into exacerbating whatever human evils lurked in his soul.
And . . . sadly . . . some very good, very well intentioned Christians . . . didn’t do all they might have done. And, no doubt, some of them did dreadfully in handling him.
all that must be taken into consideration.
And, there but for the grace of God . . . could go almost anyone with the right—errrr—wrong circumstances at critical stages.
As far as decisions go. I think he could decide to eat, or not to eat, but he was incapable of making decisions that would effect his personality, because he had none. A simple way to put it is that his entire concept of self was a complete mess and he was cluless to sort it all out and begin building. That’s what he presented on the xpentacostal board.
As far as spiritual recognition and decisions go, an intact mind is essential. I don’t see any evidence that he had one.
= = =
BTW, I like your CS Lewis quote a lot.
Some good points . . .
But I still disagree significantly.
I still believe he had plenty mind and identity intact to willfully own a good amount of very focused evil.
Yes, there was confusion. Yes, his identity was not . . . ideally robust, balanced, stable. His construct system was likely still SOMEWHAT above average vulnerable to emotional shifting.
However, I suspect a George Kelly Construct grid would have shown an amazing amount of stability and coherence given all his perceived reality.
But mostly, this was one ENRAGED kid. And, if 10% of his allegations were true—his rage was at least somewhat understandabe.
It’s easy to say it was overblown, out of proportion, extreme, off the wall etc.
But take a very sensitive kid who’s likely above average in IQ . . . and subject him to such a home life . . . the outcome is not any great surprise. Happens all the time.
Throw in the intense spiritual stuff with even, sadly, too average an amount of hypocrisy . . . it’s predictable this kid would not handle it well.
I think his anger focused and fueled his identity and mentality much more than you seem to think possible if he was as confused and deconstructed mentally as much as you seem to think he was.
I think it was a mixed bag.
Certainly it seems, appears from avaiable evidence likely the parameters and punisments at the hand of Mom . . . evidently with at least SOME EMOTIONALLY incestuous stuff . . .
made his childhood and at least his teen years
a very crazy existence.
I think you’re right.
HOwever,
DISCIPLINE WITHOUT SUFFICIENT EMOTIONAL ETC. BONDING
VIRTUALLY ALWAYS RESULTS IN REBELLION.
Mother evidently repeatedly provoked the kid to wrath. IF SO, she sowed the wind and has reaped a whirlwind.
I’m confident, that IF this picture of the mom is remotely accurate, we could go back into her childhood and find similarly horrid parenting experiences impacting her. Going back to Adam doesn’t fix anything, however.
I might not disagree with some of the mom’s proscriptions regarding music and a list of stuff.
But her EVIDENTLY mangled, twisted training from probably earliest weeks and months of his life set him and them up for utter dysfunction from the git-go.
There was EVIDENTLY no freedom to fail; no freedom to be human; no freedom to understand God in a robust balanced way; no freedom to make choices and learn constructively from their consequences etc. etc. etc. There was EVIDENTLY only mom’s twisted straight-jacket later enlarged into the PERCEIVED straight jacket of their local brand of Christianity as extrapolated and interpreted by . . . MOM and maybe distantly by dad.
I’d have to go back over his rants to come up with a “single case of . . . abuse.”
However, it was clear from my reading the rants . . . that IF 10% OF HIS ALLEGATIONS HAD ANY SUBSTANCE AT ALL . . .
he lived in a very twisted, tortured philosophical, existential, relational, values, . . . behavior/punishment night mare of a straight jacket. He could not win. He saw no durable, effective, tangible hope.
And, sadly, it’s one I could easily identify overmuch with for comfort. Thankfully, my mom was not that skilled and persistent or comprehensive in her craziness in such matters.
IF, IF, IF, IF as hinted, slightly vividly in his writings, there was anywhere near the level of even “mere” EMOTIONAL incestuousness that seems to be inescapable in his writings . . . and POSSIBLY worse . . . then the abuse really goes off the scale in several directions and respects to a high degree of intensity over a long period of time.
The easiest definition of a Satanist is one who thinks that they know better than God what is right and wrong. One who sets themself up as the final arbiter of right and wrong. One who calls evil - good and good - evil.
He was all that.
= = =
Well put.
Evidently your research is as flawed as your perceptiveness.
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