Texan a vigilante or brave law abider? ( Called 911 and ask for cops before burglars escaped....)

Los Angeles Times ^ | November 25, 2007 | Miguel Bustillo, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

A 911 recording of a man who shot and killed two burglary suspects has stirred debate on whether he should be condemned or praised.

PASADENA, TEXAS -- When he saw two men pry into his neighbor's house with a crowbar one afternoon earlier this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.

But when police had not shown up by the time the suspects were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and killed them.

"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."

Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded could be heard on the 911 tape, followed by a warning -- "Move [and] you're dead" -- and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of whom had small-time criminal histories, died of their wounds.

The six-minute recording of Horn's anger, frustration and eagerness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national controversy. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.

"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to the Houston Chronicle.

"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter. "Justice was served, law or not."

As the debate rages on talk radio and cable-TV news shows, Horn remains free.

[gitmo]

A citizens arrest.

Just remember not all states allow a citizen's arrest. North Carolina, for instance, has no such concept. Gomer was mistaken.

[itsamelman]

exan a vigilante or brave law abider?

PASADENA, TEXAS —When he saw two men pry into his neighbor’s house with a crowbar one afternoon earlier this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.

But when police had not shown up by the time the suspects were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and killed them.

“I’m not going to let them get away with this,” Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: “Property’s not worth killing someone over. . .

[mylife]

I don’t know what to tell ya. You got good service.

My mileage has varied.

[Blood of Tyrants]

Seems like the police think that property crimes aren’t even worth arresting someone for. Notice how quick they got there after the shooting.

[GregoTX]

Well its a work hazard you have to accept if you choose to commit burglaries. If you choose to be a carpenter, you get splinters sometimes. If you choose to be a welder, sometimes you get burned. If you choose to be a burglar, sometimes the neighbor comes out and blows your sorry butt away with a 12 gauge shotgun.

Just give the guy a medal and send him on the way.

[M. Dodge Thomas]

Not sure I see much difference between a culture that sanctions shotgunning people to death for minor property crimes and one that sanctions stoning them to death for minor sex crimes - they just overvalue different things.

[Brilliant]

There is no justice other than vigilantism.

[o_zarkman44]

When in doubt, check local laws after shooting.
That means you’re still alive.

[new cruelty]

When the police will not come, or cannot come immediately (as in a rural area), there is nothing else to be done except be your own law.

I lived in Houston from 1980 to 1997-... Just wondering, if youre referring to this case, I never considered Pasa-get-down-dena to be a rural area. That neighborhood is not far from the Fairmont Parkway and Red Bluff Road, very close to San Jac College Central campus, and about 2 miles from beltway 8. My point being, that it's doubtful that the police could not get there faster because the area was in a remote location.

[steve86]

I agree with you. Many of the posters on this thread probably think they are Christians but are not.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Well....child of the sixties....we might have a hell of a discussion here in a bit!...(spit)

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

He talked with the dispatcher for seven minutes....

[new cruelty]

And the police arrived shortly after the theives were shot. ...

[tbw2]

What are the odds that this dispatcher would say “an assault/bloodied up person isn’t worth killing over” or “Rape is not worth killing over”?
How is the observer to know that something worse DIDN”T happen?
Breaking in with a crow bar proves their bad guys. Enough data there to decide what to do.

[wrench]

A minor property crime is smashing a mailbox. Breaking into and lootiing someone's home is a major crime bordering on terrorism. I have had both the above done to me.

Breakins of occupied homes often result in far more than just "property crimes".

I hope you never experience a breakin in your home, I doubt you will ever feel secure there afterwards.

[new cruelty]

I'm also from Texas. When I was in college (back in the mid 80s), thieves broke into my parent's home and took my fathers rifles and several pistols, some of my mother's jewelry, and a safe.

During the burglary, my neighbors called the police and then called me, but they didn't manage to kill anyone in the process. Fortunately, by the time I got there, several police officers had arrived and most of the property was recovered (found in a yard just a few blocks away).

In fact, rather than shooting anyone, I recall my parent's neighbors were giving tours of the inside of my parent's home (the crime scene) to anyone who would happen to walk by, see the squad cars along the road, and wander in for a look! LOL.

An hour or so later, the police had arrested a couple of guys breaking into another home not far from my parent's home. Turns out it was the same guys that broke into my parent's home. They were breaking into homes and stashing the loot in a nearby yard.

It is kind of ironic- after that incident, nearly every home on that street had bars on the windows.

[no-to-illegals]

Would one prefer the protection of one's neighbor, or would one condemn one's neighbor because one's property was protected by one's neighbor? What if one's neighbor turned a blind eye, in this case, and then someone of a family, down the street, was later murdered by one of these thugs. Would a mind be changed or would one blame one's neighbor for not having taken action, when the time was the present and now, because of an overvalue of different things

Yes, I can see it. One should never protect and defend a neighbor, cause only the police should do that, even when the criminal(s) simply walk away. Nobody died except the criminals....and maybe next week these thugs would not have killed someone, but who knows. I still believe Mr. Horn took action to protect his neighbors. I would appreciate a person like this, not condemn. Sometimes turning the other cheek simply doesn't work. During the Revolutionary War, Pastors fought side by side with their flocks. I am not saying we are at War, inside our nation but maybe neighbors should be ready, and criminals invading a neighbor's home, in broad daylight, makes me remember the activity of War. I will appreciate my neighbor's hand on a weapon, as was done during and throughout this nation's history. For those who think Pastors, or men of God take no action, I shall point to the Pastors fighting with their flocks during the Revolutionary War. Many a Pastor fired their weapon, during that fight for this nation's independence and safety. I shall never condemn those Pastors, as not being Men of God.

[mylife]

It is kind of ironic- after that incident, nearly every home on that street had bars on the windows.

Ironic? Its sad

[new cruelty]

Yes, it is sad, too. Someone equated burglary with terrorism a few posts back. That is a good way to put it. The burglary I described was in the mid 80s. My parents still live in the same home. I don’t think that neighborhood has seen any other break-ins since that time. Even so, the bars are still on the windows.

[mylife]

It is a type of terrorism.
The idea that you aren’t safe in your own castle.

I would put the violation on level of rape