Posted on 08/30/2007 2:48:08 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd
Police Officers Question Craig After Arrest at Minneapolis Airport Aug. 30, 2007 —
The following is an unedited transcript of an interview between police Sgt. Dave Karsnia and police Detective Noel Nelson with Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, regarding a June 11 incident at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. Audiotapes and a transcript of the interview were released today.
Craig was arrested June 11 in an airport bathroom by Karsnia, who was working undercover. Karsnia said Craig exhibited behavior in the men's restroom that was "often used by persons communicating a desire to engage in sexual conduct."
Craig later pleaded guilty to a charge of disorderly conduct. When news of the arrest hit the press Monday, Craig issued a statement saying, "I should have had the advice of counsel in resolving this matter. In hindsight, I should not have pled guilty. I was trying to handle this matter myself quickly and expeditiously."
Under pressure from Republican party leaders, Craig stepped down from his Senate committee leadership posts.
Transcript below:
Investigative Sgt. Dave Karsnia #4211 and Detective Noel Nelson of the Minneapolis Police Department intert 1162
(NN) INTERVIEW WITH Larry Craig (LC) Case 07002008
Larry Craig: Am I gonna have to fight you in court?
Dave Karsnia: No. No. I'm not gonna go to court unless you want me there.
LC: Cause I don't want to be in court either.
DK: Ok. I don't either.
(inaudible) DK: Urn, here's the way it works, urn, you'll you'll be released today, okay.
LC: Okay.
DK: All right. I, I know I can bring you to jail, but that's not my goal here, okay? (inaudible)
LC: Don't do that. You You
DK: I'm not going to bring you to jail
LC: You solicited me.
DK: Okay. We're going to get, We're going to get into that. (inaudible)
LC: Okay.
DK: But there's the, there there's two ways, yes. You can, you can, ah, you can go to court.
You can plead guilty.
LC: Yep.
DK: There'll be a fine. You won't have to explain anything. (inaudible) I know. LC: Right.
DK: And you'll pay a fine, you be (inaudible), done. Or if you want to plead not guilty, ah, and I, I can't make these decisions for you.
LC: No, no. Just tell me where I am (inaudible) I need to make this flight.
DK: Okay. Okay. And then I go to people that are not guilty, then I would have to come to court and end up testifying. So those are the two things, okay. Did I explain that part?
LC Yes
DK Okay Urn, ah, I'm just going to read you your rights real quick, okay? You got it on?
Noel Nelson: Yep.
DK Okay.
DK: Ah, the date is 6/11/07 at 1228 hours. Urn, Mr. Craig?
LC: Yes.
DK. Sorry about that. (ringing phone)
DK: You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer now or have a present, a lawyer present now or anytime during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to you without cost. Do you understand each of these rights the way I have explained them to you?
LC: I do.
DK: Do you wish to talk to us at this time? LC I do
DK Okay Urn, I just wanna start off with a your side of the story, okay. So, a
LC: So I go into the bathroom here as I normally do, I'm a commuter too here.
DK: Okay.
LC: I sit down, urn, to go to the bathroom and ah, you said our feet bumped. I believe they did, ah, because I reached down and scooted over and urn, the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says Police. Now, urn, (sigh) that's about as far as I can take it, I don't know of anything else. Ah, your foot came toward mine, mine came towards yours, was that natural? I don't know. Did we bump? Yes. I think we did. You said so. I don't disagree with that.
DK: Okay. I don't want to get into a pissing match here.
LC: We're not going to.
DK: Good. Urn,
LC: I don't, ah, I am not gay, I don't do these kinds of things and...
DK: It doesn't matter, I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that. Here's your stuff back sir. Urn, I don't care about sexual preference.
LC: I know you don't. You're out to enforce the law.
DK: Right.
LC: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.
DK: This isn't entrapment.
LC: All right.
DK: Urn, you you're skipping some parts here, but what what about your hand?
LC What about it? I reached down, my foot like this. There was a piece of paper on the floor, I picked it up
DK: Okay.
LC What about my hand?
DK: Well, you're not being truthful with me, I'm kinda disappointed in you Senator. I'm real disappointed in you right now. Okay. I'm not, just so you know, just like everybody, 1,1,1, treat with dignity, I try to pull them away from the situation
LC: 1,1
DK: and not embarrass them.
LC: I appreciate that.
DK: And I
LC: You did that after the stall.
DK: I will say every person I've had so far has told me the truth. We've been respectful to each other and then they've gone on their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me.
LC: I don't want you to take me to jail and I think.
DK: I'm not gonna take you to jail as long as your cooperative but I'm not gonna lie. We...
LC: Did my hand come below the divider? Yes. It did.
DK: Okay, sir. We deal with people that lie to us everyday. LC: I'm sure you do.
DK: I'm sure you do to sir.
LC: And gentleman so do I.
DK: I'm sure you do. We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people. You're not a bad person.
LC: No, I don't think I am.
DK: Okay, so what I'm telling you, I don't want to be lied to.
LC: Okay.
DK: Okay. So we'll start over, you're gonna get out of here. You're gonna have to pay a fine and that will be it. Okay. I don't call media, I don't do any of that type of crap.
LC: Fine.
DK: Okay.
LC: Fine.
DK: All right, so let's start from the beginning. You went in the bathroom.
LC: I went in the bathroom.
DK: And what did you do when you...
LC: 1 stood beside the wall, waiting for a stall to open. I got in the stall, sat down, and I started to go to the bathroom. Ah, did our feet come together, apparently they did bump. Well, I won't dispute that.
DK: Okay. When I got out of the stall, I noticed other other stalls were open. LC: They were at the time. At the time I entered, 1,1, at the time I entered, I stood and waited.
DK: Okay.
LC: They were all busy, you know?
DK: Were you (inaudible) out here while you were waiting? I could see your eyes. I saw you playing with your fingers and then look up. Play with your fingers and then look up.
LC: Did I glance at your stall? I was glancing at a stall right beside yours waiting for a fella to empty it. I saw him stand up and therefore I thought it was going to empty.
DK: How long do you think you stood outside the stalls?
LC: Oh a minute or two at the most.
DK: Okay. And when you went in the stalls, then what? LC: Sat down.
DK: Okay. Did you do anything with your feet?
LC: Positioned them, I don't know. I don't know at the time. I'm a fairly wide guy.
DK: I understand.
LC: I had to spread my legs.
DK: Okay.
LC: When I lower my pants so they won't slide.
DK: Okay.
LC: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I, I looked down once, your foot was close to mine.
DK Yes.
LC Did we bump? Ah, you said so, I don't recall that, but apparently we were close.
DK Yeah, well your foot did touch mine, on my side of the stall.
LC: All right.
DK: Okay. And then with the hand. Urn, how many times did you put your hand under the stall?
LC: I don't recall. I remember reaching down once. There was a piece of toilet paper back behind me and picking it up.
DK: Okay. Was your was your palm down or up when you were doing that?
LC: I don't recall.
DK: Okay. I recall your palm being up. Okay.
LC: All right.
DK: When you pick up a piece of paper off the ground, your palm would be down, when you pick something up.
LC: Yeah, probably would be. I recall picking the paper up.
DK: And I know it's hard to describe here on tape but actually what I saw was your fingers come underneath the stalls, you're actually ta touching the bottom of the stall divider.
LC: I don't recall that.
DK: You don't recall
LC: I don't believe I did that. I don't.
DK: I saw, I saw
LC: I don't do those things.
DK: I saw your left hand and I could see the gold wedding ring when it when it went across. I could see that. On your left hand, I could see that. LC: Wait a moment, my left hand was over here.
DK: I saw there's a...
LC: My right hand was next to you.
DK: I could tell it with my ah, I could tell it was your left hand because your thumb was positioned in a faceward motion. Your thumb was on this side, not on this side.
LC: Well, we can dispute that. I'm not going to fight you in court and I, I reached down with my right hand to pick up the paper.
DK: But I'm telling you that I could see that so I know that's your left hand. Also I could see a gold ring on this finger, so that's obvious it was the left hand.
LC: Yeah, okay. My left hand was in the direct opposite of the stall from you.
DK: Okay. You, you travel through here frequently correct? LC I do
DK Um,
LC Almost weekly.
DK: Have you been successful in these bathrooms here before?
LC: I go to that bathroom regularly
DK I mean for any type of other activities.
LC: No. Absolutely not. I don't seek activity in bathrooms.
DK: It's embarrassing.
LC: Well it's embarrassing for both.. I'm not gonna fight you.
DK: I know you're not going to fight me. But that's not the point. I would respect you and I still respect you. I don't disrespect you but I'm disrespected right now and I'm not tying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer.
DK: It's not a (inaudible) I'm getting from somebody else. I'm (inaudible)
LC: (inaudible) (Talking over each other)
DK: I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I say you put your hand under there and you're going to sit there and...
LC: I admit I put my hand down.
DK: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.
LC: No. Wait a moment.
DK: And I, I'm not dumb, you can say I don't recall...
LC: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.
DK: it's not that hard for me to reach. (inaudible) it's not that hard. I see it happen everyday out here now.
LC: (inaudible) you do. All right.
DK: I just, I just, I guess, I guess I'm gonna say I'm just disappointed in you sir. I'm just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you.
LC: Yes, they do. (inaudible)
DK: unbelievable, unbelievable.
LC: I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...
DK: And (inaudible) respect right now though
LC: But I didn't use my left hand.
DK I thought that you...
LC: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.
DK: Was your gold ring on your right hand at anytime today.
LC: Of course not, try to get it off, look at it.
DK: Okay. Then it was your left hand, I saw it with my own eyes.
LC: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.
DK: Embarrassing, embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?
NN Uh, no
DK: Embarrassing. Date is 6/11/07 at 1236 interview is done.
LC: Okay
This sad situation is clearly an example of the entrapment and coersion to which we all could fall victim to. To wit:
"Okay. So we'll start over, you're gonna get out of here. You're gonna have to pay a fine and that will be it. Okay. I don't call media, I don't do any of that type of crap."
And: "All right. I, I know I can bring you to jail, but that's not my goal here, okay?"
And: "I will say every person I've had so far has told me the truth. We've been respectful to each other and then they've gone on their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me."< The threats were there re: the media and jail.
Could anyone believe the cop's assertion that "every person I've had so far has told me the truth," and that "We've been respectful to each other and then they've gone on their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me." The man has led a charmed life or reminds people of their parish priest.
And Craig said nothing that was contradictory, and he seemed to not understand the questions asked in the twisted way in which they were framed. He did not recall some details that really were immaterial -- he was flustered, after all.
It also does not appear that the cop had probable cause to detain Craig, let alone arrest him.
No illegal transaction had occurred -- and no articuable offer and no articulable acceptance of said offer took place.
A reasonable person would gather that he was in a custodial situation before Craig was Mirandized.
The cop never disputed Craig's recollection that the "smoking-gun" piece of paper has the word "police" on it, and that is chronicled on the interview tape.
It also is not clear from the tape that Craig ever was informed of the charge(s) against him and that he indeed was under arrest as he was Mirandized.
It also is clear that the "interview" elicited no incriminating statements from Craig. Craig's political career and his reputation already are ruined, so he has little to lose and everything to gain by filing a mega-lawsuit against the city, the county, the PD, and the "arresting" officer personally for false arrest.
Even if Craig were a flaming AIDS dispenser, it is not at all clear that he committed any crime in the airport restroom.
The discovery phase of such a civil action might prove interesting indeed when the records and "arrestees" related to a goodly number of this cop's "vice" arrests were produced examined or questioned and the cop himself questioned under oath duirng one or more depositions.
It likely would prove extremely interesting to question the cop under oath in a courtroom and even more interesting to let a jury decide whether Craig in fact was falsely arrested and defamed.
I don't appreciate being harrassed in public restrooms or elsewhere, but each time an abuse of police powers and due process occurs brings all of us closer to finding ourselves someday in the clutches of one of an increasing number of governmental agencies that have proven themselves to be corrupt each and every day. Even the vaunted FBI was proven to have framed several defendants in Boston, and said defendants, I recall, served 20+ years of hard time or died while incarcerated.
And if such an outrageous situation could befall a sitting senior U.S. senator, then we all should increasingly strive employ efforts to watch our backs, the Patriot Act notwithstanding.....
99.999% of the time if a couple cannot conceive it is because of the woman. It is EXTREMELY rare that a man cannot produce enough sperm. I mean the guy would have to be all but castrated. Put it this way, not even condoms can protect a woman. Yes they reduce the probability a great deal, but all it takes is ONE sperm cell which can enter the vagina while the condom is simply being taken off.
“Low sperm count” is meaningless. To conceive, the woman produces one cell while the man has millions (40 million in one ejaculate)... Even if he is classified as “low count” it is virtually impossible for him not to impregnate a woman unless sexual activity is very low. Craigs wife has had 3 kids from a previous marriage, LC is not even recorded of having a girlfriend! She is his “beard” which is gay slang for a closet homo who wants to appear hetero.
Believe me; This guy is as “gey” as “Mary” Hoover or like I said maybe partially gay where he can`t perform. I had three kids by the time I was 22. Why? I couldn`t help it...The opportunity was there and I lost control, much like LC felt when he finds a blond stud on the toilet, and you will find millions of men exactly in my position. 100% heterosexuality will do that to you which explains my extreme poverty. I should be ashamed but I am not because now they are grown up and they are great kids.
To me LC should come out of the closet. I don`t think being gay is a bad thing, it harms nobody unless it is something like harrassing people trying to take a dump. What is worse is denying his nature and living a lie like Tom Cruise, John Travolta and Jodie Foster do.
I have to agree with you tracer...you make good points.
I’m bothered by the fact that there is no history to this guy in this regard...no rumors, no stories.
Why would a Senator, presumably looking for discretion, solicit sex in a public restroom he visited weekly? Wouldn’t this guy have been known to SOMEONE if he had?
I’ve been to traffic court...your word against a cop’s...cop’s can be wrong sometimes too.
Anyone ever pled guilty to a lesser charge, (even when not guilty), in order to avoid a kangeroo court and points?
I listened to the transcript and he sounded innocent. The cop was pressing him. I think he was set up too.
The cops said he put his roller bag in front of the stall door to block view of outsiders. Everyone does that,,there is no other place to put the roller, plus it holds the door shut and it does not obstruct views thru cracks.
This guy was set up.
Thats what lawyers are for.
What kind of ignorant nonsense are you spewing. A family can’t conceive and the husband is gay?? All infertility in a couple is a woman’s fault?
Glad to hear of your inability to control yourself. It certainly proves your manhood.
But, despite your great wealth of personal experience, you are wrong.
I don’t know, I never heard about people touching feet and rubbing the bottoms of stalls as being “signals” they wanted to have sex...gads, what is this world coming to....but I agree that the police officer...if he indeed is for real was WAY the heck out of bounds...no. 1...did not inform Sen. C what he was under arrest for, whether he could leave...(to clarify whether it was custodial or non-custodial)....no.2...sounds to me like the police officer wants money for a bribe...wonder how much he makes off those fellas he nabs that way....the alleged police officer brought no one else in on the arrest...very suspicious there...better be looking at the police officer. The police officer prolly had a big bribe in mind when he hit on the senator.
The cops were caught red-handed trying to get convictions. Notice the cop gives up pretty easily once caught in his lie about the left right hand having a ring.
LC: “I don’t recall. I remember reaching down once. There was a piece of toilet paper back behind me and picking it up.”
GROSS! Was he going to use a piece of TP he found on the floor?
This alone is grounds for removal from the Senate....LOL..it shows very poor judgement.
Great post!
“What kind of ignorant nonsense are you spewing. A family can’t conceive and the husband is gay??”
I saw that too. Do you really believe that, or is a sarcasm thing due to the Wikepedia stuff?
You do know that Wikepedia can be, (and has been), edited by anyone for any reason and is therefore NOT a credible or reliable source of information for anything...don’t you?
You are so out to lunch on your statistics, it is laughable. Do you suspect all men who have no children?
Excellent post and great analysis.
Yea, verily. He’ll get a lawyer and win this battle, but such is akin to closing the restroom stall after the perv has bolted......
If there were no toilet seat covers, maybe it was a piece of toilet paper he had pulled to use on the seat and it came off, thus he knew it was clean and was going to dispose of it.
Difference there is that the Duke boys were not even at said party at the time the fake crime supposedly happened. All three of them had an alibi that came forth almost immediately though Nifong chose to ignore that.
Now if the cop busted someone who looked like Craig, but Craig was in his office in Boise, ID at the time and the media still ran with it, then I would accept the similarities.
This cop admitted in the paper up here he knew 80% of Senators. A Democrat cop?
This smells like the cop went fishing for political reasons and got what he hoped for.
There seems to be a campaign against every conservative stalwart and it started with Rush and continues.
Craig was foolish not to fight if he’s innocent.
I guess....ewwwww! I don’t think the 2 second rule applies to public restrooms though....lol
Actually, the point is that in both cases the accused were presumed guilty...without evidence.
“This cop admitted in the paper up here he knew 80% of Senators.”
Wow a cop who is smarter than 90 percent of the college professors. I’m impressed.
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