TRANSCRIPT: Police Interview With Sen. Larry Craig

ABC News ^ | 08/30/2007

[Responsibility2nd]

Police Officers Question Craig After Arrest at Minneapolis Airport Aug. 30, 2007 —

The following is an unedited transcript of an interview between police Sgt. Dave Karsnia and police Detective Noel Nelson with Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, regarding a June 11 incident at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. Audiotapes and a transcript of the interview were released today.

Craig was arrested June 11 in an airport bathroom by Karsnia, who was working undercover. Karsnia said Craig exhibited behavior in the men's restroom that was "often used by persons communicating a desire to engage in sexual conduct."

Craig later pleaded guilty to a charge of disorderly conduct. When news of the arrest hit the press Monday, Craig issued a statement saying, "I should have had the advice of counsel in resolving this matter. In hindsight, I should not have pled guilty. I was trying to handle this matter myself quickly and expeditiously."

Under pressure from Republican party leaders, Craig stepped down from his Senate committee leadership posts.

Transcript below:

Investigative Sgt. Dave Karsnia #4211 and Detective Noel Nelson of the Minneapolis Police Department intert 1162

(NN) INTERVIEW WITH Larry Craig (LC) Case 07002008

Larry Craig: Am I gonna have to fight you in court?

Dave Karsnia: No. No. I'm not gonna go to court unless you want me there.

LC: Cause I don't want to be in court either.

DK: Ok. I don't either.

(inaudible) DK: Urn, here's the way it works, urn, you'll you'll be released today, okay.

LC: Okay.

DK: All right. I, I know I can bring you to jail, but that's not my goal here, okay? (inaudible)

LC: Don't do that. You You

DK: I'm not going to bring you to jail

LC: You solicited me.

DK: Okay. We're going to get, We're going to get into that. (inaudible)

LC: Okay.

DK: But there's the, there there's two ways, yes. You can, you can, ah, you can go to court.

You can plead guilty.

LC: Yep.

DK: There'll be a fine. You won't have to explain anything. (inaudible) I know. LC: Right.

DK: And you'll pay a fine, you be (inaudible), done. Or if you want to plead not guilty, ah, and I, I can't make these decisions for you.

LC: No, no. Just tell me where I am (inaudible) I need to make this flight.

DK: Okay. Okay. And then I go to people that are not guilty, then I would have to come to court and end up testifying. So those are the two things, okay. Did I explain that part?

LC Yes

DK Okay Urn, ah, I'm just going to read you your rights real quick, okay? You got it on?

Noel Nelson: Yep.

DK Okay.

DK: Ah, the date is 6/11/07 at 1228 hours. Urn, Mr. Craig?

LC: Yes.

DK. Sorry about that. (ringing phone)

DK: You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer now or have a present, a lawyer present now or anytime during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to you without cost. Do you understand each of these rights the way I have explained them to you?

LC: I do.

DK: Do you wish to talk to us at this time? LC I do

DK Okay Urn, I just wanna start off with a your side of the story, okay. So, a

LC: So I go into the bathroom here as I normally do, I'm a commuter too here.

DK: Okay.

LC: I sit down, urn, to go to the bathroom and ah, you said our feet bumped. I believe they did, ah, because I reached down and scooted over and urn, the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says Police. Now, urn, (sigh) that's about as far as I can take it, I don't know of anything else. Ah, your foot came toward mine, mine came towards yours, was that natural? I don't know. Did we bump? Yes. I think we did. You said so. I don't disagree with that.

DK: Okay. I don't want to get into a pissing match here.

LC: We're not going to.

DK: Good. Urn,

LC: I don't, ah, I am not gay, I don't do these kinds of things and...

DK: It doesn't matter, I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that. Here's your stuff back sir. Urn, I don't care about sexual preference.

LC: I know you don't. You're out to enforce the law.

DK: Right.

LC: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.

DK: This isn't entrapment.

LC: All right.

DK: Urn, you you're skipping some parts here, but what what about your hand?

LC What about it? I reached down, my foot like this. There was a piece of paper on the floor, I picked it up

DK: Okay.

LC What about my hand?

DK: Well, you're not being truthful with me, I'm kinda disappointed in you Senator. I'm real disappointed in you right now. Okay. I'm not, just so you know, just like everybody, 1,1,1, treat with dignity, I try to pull them away from the situation

LC: 1,1

DK: and not embarrass them.

LC: I appreciate that.

DK: And I

LC: You did that after the stall.

DK: I will say every person I've had so far has told me the truth. We've been respectful to each other and then they've gone on their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me.

LC: I don't want you to take me to jail and I think.

DK: I'm not gonna take you to jail as long as your cooperative but I'm not gonna lie. We...

LC: Did my hand come below the divider? Yes. It did.

DK: Okay, sir. We deal with people that lie to us everyday. LC: I'm sure you do.

DK: I'm sure you do to sir.

LC: And gentleman so do I.

DK: I'm sure you do. We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people. You're not a bad person.

LC: No, I don't think I am.

DK: Okay, so what I'm telling you, I don't want to be lied to.

LC: Okay.

DK: Okay. So we'll start over, you're gonna get out of here. You're gonna have to pay a fine and that will be it. Okay. I don't call media, I don't do any of that type of crap.

LC: Fine.

DK: Okay.

LC: Fine.

DK: All right, so let's start from the beginning. You went in the bathroom.

LC: I went in the bathroom.

DK: And what did you do when you...

LC: 1 stood beside the wall, waiting for a stall to open. I got in the stall, sat down, and I started to go to the bathroom. Ah, did our feet come together, apparently they did bump. Well, I won't dispute that.

DK: Okay. When I got out of the stall, I noticed other other stalls were open. LC: They were at the time. At the time I entered, 1,1, at the time I entered, I stood and waited.

DK: Okay.

LC: They were all busy, you know?

DK: Were you (inaudible) out here while you were waiting? I could see your eyes. I saw you playing with your fingers and then look up. Play with your fingers and then look up.

LC: Did I glance at your stall? I was glancing at a stall right beside yours waiting for a fella to empty it. I saw him stand up and therefore I thought it was going to empty.

DK: How long do you think you stood outside the stalls?

LC: Oh a minute or two at the most.

DK: Okay. And when you went in the stalls, then what? LC: Sat down.

DK: Okay. Did you do anything with your feet?

LC: Positioned them, I don't know. I don't know at the time. I'm a fairly wide guy.

DK: I understand.

LC: I had to spread my legs.

DK: Okay.

LC: When I lower my pants so they won't slide.

DK: Okay.

LC: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I, I looked down once, your foot was close to mine.

DK Yes.

LC Did we bump? Ah, you said so, I don't recall that, but apparently we were close.

DK Yeah, well your foot did touch mine, on my side of the stall.

LC: All right.

DK: Okay. And then with the hand. Urn, how many times did you put your hand under the stall?

LC: I don't recall. I remember reaching down once. There was a piece of toilet paper back behind me and picking it up.

DK: Okay. Was your was your palm down or up when you were doing that?

LC: I don't recall.

DK: Okay. I recall your palm being up. Okay.

LC: All right.

DK: When you pick up a piece of paper off the ground, your palm would be down, when you pick something up.

LC: Yeah, probably would be. I recall picking the paper up.

DK: And I know it's hard to describe here on tape but actually what I saw was your fingers come underneath the stalls, you're actually ta touching the bottom of the stall divider.

LC: I don't recall that.

DK: You don't recall

LC: I don't believe I did that. I don't.

DK: I saw, I saw

LC: I don't do those things.

DK: I saw your left hand and I could see the gold wedding ring when it when it went across. I could see that. On your left hand, I could see that. LC: Wait a moment, my left hand was over here.

DK: I saw there's a...

LC: My right hand was next to you.

DK: I could tell it with my ah, I could tell it was your left hand because your thumb was positioned in a faceward motion. Your thumb was on this side, not on this side.

LC: Well, we can dispute that. I'm not going to fight you in court and I, I reached down with my right hand to pick up the paper.

DK: But I'm telling you that I could see that so I know that's your left hand. Also I could see a gold ring on this finger, so that's obvious it was the left hand.

LC: Yeah, okay. My left hand was in the direct opposite of the stall from you.

DK: Okay. You, you travel through here frequently correct? LC I do

DK Um,

LC Almost weekly.

DK: Have you been successful in these bathrooms here before?

LC: I go to that bathroom regularly

DK I mean for any type of other activities.

LC: No. Absolutely not. I don't seek activity in bathrooms.

DK: It's embarrassing.

LC: Well it's embarrassing for both.. I'm not gonna fight you.

DK: I know you're not going to fight me. But that's not the point. I would respect you and I still respect you. I don't disrespect you but I'm disrespected right now and I'm not tying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer.

DK: It's not a (inaudible) I'm getting from somebody else. I'm (inaudible)

LC: (inaudible) (Talking over each other)

DK: I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I say you put your hand under there and you're going to sit there and...

LC: I admit I put my hand down.

DK: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.

LC: No. Wait a moment.

DK: And I, I'm not dumb, you can say I don't recall...

LC: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.

DK: it's not that hard for me to reach. (inaudible) it's not that hard. I see it happen everyday out here now.

LC: (inaudible) you do. All right.

DK: I just, I just, I guess, I guess I'm gonna say I'm just disappointed in you sir. I'm just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you.

LC: Yes, they do. (inaudible)

DK: unbelievable, unbelievable.

LC: I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...

DK: And (inaudible) respect right now though

LC: But I didn't use my left hand.

DK I thought that you...

LC: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.

DK: Was your gold ring on your right hand at anytime today.

LC: Of course not, try to get it off, look at it.

DK: Okay. Then it was your left hand, I saw it with my own eyes.

LC: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.

DK: Embarrassing, embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?

NN Uh, no

DK: Embarrassing. Date is 6/11/07 at 1236 interview is done.

LC: Okay

[21stCenturyFreeThinker]

I can’t see where just the action of passing ones hand, foot, etc. by the wall would lead one to being arrested.

Well, if it was just by the wall it would be one thing. But he was well on the wrong side of the wall from what the report says.

I mean even on the streets they have to get an actual type of “verbal” agreement for such services don’t they before they just up and arrest someone.

If that were so then people could just use non verbal gestures to evade the law.

Maybe we should all listen to our mothers and go before we leave the house?

Like they say, you learned all you need to know in kindergarten.

[maggief]

Tuesday, June 19, 2007
Concert violinist attacked by cops for riding a bicycle

The problem is that cops can harass you for no reason, treat any response except complete submission as resisting arrest, and their word carries more weight than yours, even if you have video evidence to the contrary.

I then heard him yell an order to Officer Bryant- ‘Shoot him!’. Officer Bryant then shot me with the taser. I fell uncontrolled to the pavement for the second time, experiencing the full force of a weapon that can only be considered barbaric. (There are many documented deaths by taser. For this reason police departments do not consider it a ‘non’ lethal weapon, but a ‘less’ lethal weapon. It was developed to be used in lieu of a gun, as a weapon of last resort when a person is seriously threatened. Needless to say, I did not give permission for this to be used on me as part of the exercise, nor was I asked in advance if I had any medical history that could have led to my death. Only after the fact, in the hospital, was I asked my medical history.)

As I lay still on the pavement, Officer Wingate walked over to my glasses and smashed them into the ground with his boot. I was handcuffed, body searched and baggage searched. Reinforcements were called in, a total of (4) squad cars and a paramedic unit.

Officer Wingate said, ‘Well, you wanted to speak to my supervisor, here he is’. I then asked Sergeant Karsnia ‘What in the world is going on here?’ He also wanted to know from me what had happened but said ‘first, I’d like to speak to my officer, and then I’ll get back to you’. He had a private conversation with Officer Wingate, came back, asked what had happened but immediately interrupted me and said ‘Look, I’ll do the talking here because you tried to take a swing at my officer’. At this point the collusion was clear. I then had no reason to believe that the brutality was over. As I stood on Outbound Rd next to the squad car, handcuffed, I called out ‘Help!’ to all passing traffic, hoping to draw attention to the situation, and in hope of a witness. No cars would stop. When ironically asked to ‘calm down’ I explained to Sergeant Karsnia that I wanted a third party present, as I no longer had reason to trust the police.

Posted by Jeff at 8:30 PM

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:o1-H_td62RkJ:spinthecat.blogspot.com/2007/06/concert-violinist-attacked-by-cops-for.html+david+karsnia+police+-larry+-craig&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://greencycles.blogspot.com/

http://presspubs.com/articles/2007/07/20/white_bear_press/news/doc469e1aa46d057014929027.txt

[cynwoody]

Regardless of Craig being guilty or innocent, I think the cop is an assw*pe!

If this blogpost is true, the cop is much worse than that.

[lonestar]

What I don’t understand is-—WHY is it such a big deal if he put his L or R hand under the stall?

[scrabblehack]

I'm wondering what he meant by this line:

LC: So I go into the bathroom here as I normally do, I'm a commuter too here.

I assume what was meant was "I'm a commuter to here." So has he been going to MSP on a regular basis? Well, it could be a hub for DC to Idaho flights, I suppose, but even if I did fly DC-MSP-ID quite a bit, I don't think I would have said I was a "commuter" to MSP.

[Mannaggia l'America]

1. LC: Well..yes. I am frequently successful in these bathrooms. Only once I can remember, I came to shlt but only farted!

Sorry, I had to.

I was thinking the same thing! How does one determine "success" in the bathroom?

[When do we get liberated?]

I am going to put this nex to Pee Wee Herman stroking it in a theatre. It would not even be significant were it not for his position. Every line of the cops sounds like a man trying to corner someone from what they think the person did. I don’t condone homo activity in public places, but I am alarmed when someone uses the suble or not so suble force of the state to get you to admit to something you look like you were doing.

[keepitreal]

Just heard a commentator on CNN Anderson Cooper 360 say that Craig must absolutely resign because by his guilty plea he is a convicted criminal and convicted criminals are not permitted to serve in the US Senate.

I about fell over. The guy obviously has forgotten “Old Ted” from MA!

[VxH]

[there's nothing in what he confessed to which charges lewd behavior.]

 

Another strawman. 

 

The definition of Lewd includes obscenity.

 

lewd (lūd)
adj., lewd·er, lewd·est.

1. 1. Preoccupied with sex and sexual desire; lustful.
   2. Obscene; indecent.
2. Obsolete. Wicked.

[Middle English leued, unlearned, lay, lascivious, from Old English lǣwede, ignorant, lay.]

lewdly lewd'ly adv.
lewdness lewd'ness n.

http://www.answers.com/topic/lewd

 

The cited Disorderly Conduct statute DOES have a reference to conduct that is obscene. 

3) Engages in offensive, obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy conduct

 

Obscene behavior is lewd behavior.

 

That seems to be the way that Sgt. Karsnia and Detective Nelson were applying the Minnesota statute.  I suspect they are a whole lot more familiar with the legal statutes and definitions in their jurisdiction than you or I are.

[21stCenturyFreeThinker]

Toe-tapping? I would say yes.

I'll vote with you there, toe tappers should be left alone as long as they do it in their own stall. I think nose pickers and farters should be protected as well. As for people who pee on the seat ...

Man, I respect you for holding your ground in the face of a withering assault over the last couple of days. I just have a hard time seeing how this could be a conspiracy. I'd like to think he didn't do this. But I'm guessing the other 40+ men caught up in this sting are making the same excuses to their friends and family.

[TigersEye]

Good find. The way Officer Wingate acted is right in line with the same sort of unprofessional badgering and offense taken at not agreeing with everything he said that Sgt. Karsnia displayed in this interview with Craig. Something stinks in Minneapolis.

[VxH]

[Yet you 100% assume Craig acted lewdly.

Sharpen those brains, boy.]

Sharpen? The strawmen you keep hoisting up can be perforated with a dull spoon.

You're not going to start asking us to define IS are you?

Some definitions of Lewd include Obscenity. Obscene conduct is included under the Disorderly Conduct statute Senator Craig was charged under.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1889089/posts?page=289#289

[philetus]

Do men spread their feet out further sometimes to help keep their suit pants from touching the floor?”

Yes, but unless the stall is extremely narrow, not enough for your foot to be in the next stall.

[21stCenturyFreeThinker]

The cited Disorderly Conduct statute DOES have a reference to conduct that is obscene.

3) Engages in offensive, obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy conduct

I think what they are trying to say is that using a strict parsing of the language of the statute by itself his conduct could have merely been offensive, abusive, boisterous, or noisy, rather than obscene. The problem is that the charging document explains specifically what conduct led to these charges and his guilty plea.

[VxH]

[The problem is that the charging document explains specifically what conduct led to these charges and his guilty plea.]

 

Sgt. Karsnia was investigating lewd conduct.   If the definition of Lewd includes Obscenity, then the obscenity reference in the statute includes lewd conduct.

 

Tap Tap, (zzzip) Waddle Waddle -  It's Larry the Lewd Duck.

 

[endthematrix]

What a railroading.

I’m in Chicago and the front page of the Sun-Times is a guy who was railroaded by undercover vice cops posing as a street corner whore. The guy stopped (with his wife and daughter in the car) because his wife had seen a female appear to need help waving her arms. They stopped to see if she needed help and the cop said $25 for sex and they family laughed. Next thing he’s arrested and the city impounds his car (Chitown scam) and thousands of $$$ later...

[TChad]

Thanks for posting the transcript. That cop spent way too much time emphasizing the benefits of pleading guilty.

You accept a job as a toilet cop only if you have been promised a reward if you do it well. Doing it well means getting convictions. An easy way to get convictions is to threaten innocent men with the expense and humiliation of a public trial, so they plead guilty even if they are innocent. Maybe that was not what the cop was doing, but it sure sounded that way to me.

Yesterday I was pretty much convinced that Craig was guilty. Now I am not at all sure he wasn't just the victim of a police scam.

Time will tell. This is an ideal time for Craig's gay partners to make money selling their stories, so we will either learn something from those stories, or from their absence.

[VxH]

If Mr. Greenpeace had simply WALKED his bicycle out of the terminal area the whole incident that he provoked would have been avoided.

But no, he had to make a point.

A Republic is a system of LAWS.

I was raised to question the authority of those who make the laws while respecting those whose job it is to implement them on the street.

Mr. Greanpeace's blog reminds me of the cop-hating posts that are typical on indymedia and he gets no sympathy from me.

[VxH]

[WHY is it such a big deal if he put his L or R hand under the stall?]

He caught Craig in a lie. Focusing on the lie probably cranked up the panic-o-meter and increased the psychological pressure within him to plead guilty.

[21stCenturyFreeThinker]

Tap Tap, (zzzip) Waddle Waddle - It's Larry the Lewd Duck.

lol

I can understand why this is hard for people to accept. Take the politics out of it. It's a lot easier to think only unaccomplished creepy looking degenerates who can be spotted a mile away ever do this stuff.

The guy looks like he could be your grandfather. Who wants to think their grandfather ever did something like this. I mean I'm pretty sure my granddad never even had sex.



It would probably be best if the Senator spent more time fishing, just not in any bathrooms.