Posted on 08/26/2007 11:12:24 AM PDT by wagglebee
(CNN) -- A New Orleans grand jury that declined to indict a doctor on charges that she murdered patients in the chaotic days after Hurricane Katrina never heard testimony from five medical experts brought in by the state to analyze the deaths.
All five concluded that as many as nine patients were victims of homicide.
In detailed, written statements, the five specialists -- whose expertise includes forensic medicine, medical ethics and palliative care -- determined that patients at Memorial Medical Center had been deliberately killed with overdoses of drugs after Katrina struck New Orleans in 2005.
The grand jury had been asked to consider second-degree murder charges against a doctor and two nurses in four deaths. But in July, the grand jury decided that no one should be indicted.
A grand jury is charged with determining whether there is sufficient evidence to indict a defendant and pursue a trial. The grand jury's proceedings are held in secret, and grand jurors and officers of the court are typically prohibited from divulging what goes on in grand jury sessions.
In a decision that puzzled the five experts hired by the state, New Orleans District Attorney Eddie Jordan never called them to testify before the grand jury. What remains unclear, because of grand jury secrecy laws, is whether the grand jury even saw the experts' written reports.
"They weren't interested in presenting those facts to the grand jury," said Dr. Cyril Wecht, the former coroner of Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, and a past president of the American Academy of Forensic Scientists.
"The hard scientific facts are those from five leading experts, [the patients died] from massive lethal doses of morphine and Versed. As far as I know the toxicological findings were not presented to the grand jury and certainly not with quantitative analysis."
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
“I agree with you, but think we’re in the minority here. I’m a pro-lifer as well, but from what I remember reading at the time, it was not possible to move these people and they would have drowned in the environment in which they were in. It sounds as if the doctors had to choose between letting them drown, or giving them the injection. And as horrible as what they did may be, it seems like a more humane death than drowning would have been.”
Joann37, I have to say that’s pretty disturbing. As someone who has endured extended periods of intense pain, allow me to remind you that under no conditions do we have the right to kill innocent persons. To deprive someone of consciousness during danger of death is a terrible thing because you may be depriving someone his last chance to make peace with God. Furthermore, whatever a person suffers here in the state of grace gains him merit which he can unite with the Passion of Christ to help other souls. So please don’t rationalize euthanasia and call yourself a pro-lifer. Life and its pains are short, but eternity is forever.
I think it’s safe to say that not ONE patient in any hospital goes there wanting to die. One goes to a hospital to recover and/or stave off death.
ASSUMING people want to die rather than suffer is what happened here. Pou assumed how much suffering was too much- and not for every patient, just these.
Beware bestowing this power on doctors. How many people are in long term care facilities, suffering despite all that medicine can do for them? How many suffer in burn units, dialysis, cancer treatments?
A doctors job is to ‘do no harm’. It is to ease suffering, not hasten death. There is a huge difference between having to watch someone struggle for breath when you can’t give them oxygen, and putting a pillow over their face and holding it down until they are dead.
EVERYONE was suffering there after Katrina, and I assume every doctor was trying to ease the suffering. Why then does this ONE doctor only have patients who die from her compassion?
Some doctors sadly do. However, it is the bureaucrats (physician & non-physician alike) that you should fear. They are the social engineers who will use physicians, as well anyone else, in order to advance their view of society.
As for doctors, they are simply highly trained professionals. They represent the current society in the same way as other professionals. And as to the poster's statement that "Medical acts are not subject to the same laws that guide other acts," that is true to a certain extent. It is analogous to saying that a uniformed service member plays by different rules than a civilian. However, a physician must be accountable for an act of murder, as should a soldier. If we physicians would simply hold to the first axiom of "do no harm," and apply that axiom narrowly and literally, the profession would be held in higher esteem.
You are wrong.
Good point, all.
It also took a few years before emergency departments adapted to them. They often ignored them at first, and there was no real penalty for that, but they did change their ways. It happened while I was still an EMT. Even with the DNR, many families just couldn’t let go, or couldn’t watch their loved one die when the moment came. There were cases where the patients were known to the emergency crews, but how can you refuse to do CPR when the family is crying and looking at you to do something?
It’s a sensitive issue, with a lot of nuances, and Dr. Pou and her invention of “reverse triage” isn’t helping it any. They probably won’t get the truth out in the civil case, either. They can still file another indictment, so they can’t be compelled to testify due to self incrimination. And that’s a shame. I think Dr. Pou panicked and lost control of her senses. I think she killed nine people, and she will never suffer a penalty for it.
NO ONE (except Mr. Nelson, and he is mistaken) is saying that 8 mg is a lethal dose, or that that is what Mrs. Nelson was given by Dr. Pou, or that is what caused her death.
Mr. Nelson is going by what is recorded in the medical chaert, but Dr. Pou’s injections were not reflected in the chart — not in the physicians orders, the nurses notes, or in the MAR. But the pharmacy records that 20+ (IIRC) vials of morphine were dispensed to Dr. Pou were preserved.”
So why is this the first mention you’ve made of that in 200+ posts? I’ve been asking for facts all along, as you well know, and you’ve been ranting.
The post you’re referring to here is about all you posted besides your opinion. If you have more facts, why don’t you post them, too? I’ve said all along that we don’t have enough facts to determine that Dr. Pou committed murder. I’ve asked you what facts you have that I don’t. You have also said, repeatedly, that she gave lethal doses, and when I’ve cited that 8mg number, you have said it was a lethal dose, and railed at me for not seeing that.
If you have more information, post it. I don’t mean that you must copy and paste the whole article, either. Just a link will do. That is all I’ve been asking for, all along. You’ve said she’s a murderer, and never supported your accusation with facts. Point out the facts, and let us evaluate them. You’d be surprised how often that can change folk’s minds.
Absent those facts, I’ll say it again. We do not know enough to conclude that the doctor murdered those patients. After all, I’ve been pointing out all along that 8mg of morphine is not a lethal dose. Your response has been that the doctor murdered them, without even saying, (until now, as far as I know, having not gone back through the thread) that Mr. Nelson was mistaken, or that 8mg wasn’t a lethal dose. Do you see why I’ve been arguing with you? You have a lot of passion on the subject, but you’ve been letting it over-rule your intellect. Libs do that far too much.
Lots of missing vials of morphine? I need to read it myself. Nelson cited, as far as I can tell, an autopsy report, btw. If 8mg of morphine is all the ME found, that is not particularly supportive of your position, but it’s not necessarily fatal to it, either. Depends on what else the report says. I’d like to read that, too, if you have a link.
“You are wrong.”
Considering how much I said in my post 218, I don’t know how you could say that. How about saying exactly what I said that was wrong? If you’re talking about the dose of morphine my wife is taking...
“Oh, come on now. I have repeatedly said that the 8 mg dose was not the one in question.”
FRiend, mostly what you said every time I mentioned the 8mg dose was that Pou murdered those people. You do not answer questions, you simply plug away at your points. I’ve asked you direct questions like “what link are you using to get to the information you’re basing your statements on” and you are not answering at all. Just more of the same. I am asking you, one last time, to cite your sources. You don’t want to do that, fine. Put me on ignore from now on. Unless you do post those links, that is exactly what I’m going to be doing for you.
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