Posted on 08/19/2007 9:52:10 AM PDT by wagglebee
“Jane Wyman initiated the divorce not him.”
Who initiated it isn’t important. To many Christians, divorce is a sin, no matter who started it.
Apply the standards fairly and equally or drop the argument altogether.
Giuliani's divorces were pretty messy ones, no doubt about it. To some extent, that isn't his fault; I don't think Donna Hanover was any prize. On the other hand, he really didn't use much sense by rushing into his relationship with Judith Nathan and announcing his divorce at a press conference.
I think there is an interesting point to be made that Reagan had some baggage, particularly given the standards of the time. The divorce, the children's actions, the fact that Nancy Reagan was pregnant at their marriage, all of those could have been major negatives. I think perhaps the difference is that with regard to his children, Reagan probably had the sympathy of a lot of parents who were struggling with their kids. Remember the famous (or infamous) Betty Ford interview on that topic? I don't think that voters hold their kids against a candidate.
With regard to the divorce and Nancy's pregnancy, I think the issue is that Reagan himself probably would have acknowledged these as failings or errors on his part (not that a child isn't a wonderful thing, but I am sure he would regret setting a bad example on premarital relations). Giuliani, on the other hand, doesn't seem even to recognize the importance of the moral standards he is flouting. I think it's one thing to acknowledge you have fallen short of your own standards, but another to deny those standards even matter. And yes, I do think the time elapsed has a big effect. Anyone can make a mistake. I don't think you can claim Reagan's mistakes constituted a pattern. Giuliani, on the other hand, has a history of a rather messy personal life.
Is this another way of saying that conservatives have had their feet on the neck of the GOP for too long?
I would have thought that was easily discernible to even the dimmest bulb, but it is nice of you to admit it.
Figures. What's your name over at MadmanIvan's WAnkerville anti-FReeper site?
“Support for homosexual marriages and rights, abortion, and gun control are hardly views of Classical liberalism. They’re not even libertarian. These are socialist positions.”
*Laughing*
They are issues that will be worked out by the processes of Classical Liberalism, i.e. free and open debate and the consent of the governed. Your opposition to even diuscussing these things (except on your own terms, that is, to ban them because they don’t conform to your vision of what is right) is closer to socialism than anything I can think of at the moment.
Completely relevant. It's a question of character. Giuliani is running for President and people want to know details of why his marriage ended. His second divorce was very nasty. If he can't handle his personal life, how can you expect him to handle public life?
I guess so long as your dirty laundry is all aired publicly, no matter how sordid, it makes everything okay?
Fred Thompson is divorced. Soon afterwards, he dated a string of beautiful women. I'm sure Fred is a walking tabloid, right? So ask me why there isn't any outrage from conservatives on this. The answer goes back to character.
Ill remmber that the next time someone posts a picture of Giuliani in drag. The double standard continues.
If you don't find it creepy that a grown man enjoys dressing in women's clothing (and he has done it more than just for "charity"), you have issues.
Oh, it's very important, indeed. Wyman divorced Reagan because she disagreed with his political ambitions. The two didn't match. That's hardly along the lines of committing adultery or Reagan initiating it for selfish reasons.
To many Christians, divorce is a sin, no matter who started it.
Sorry, you're wrong with this blanket opinion.
Apply the standards fairly and equally or drop the argument altogether.
Dude, there is no double standards. Rudy's divorce and Reagan's divorce are as opposite as temperatures on the North Pole and the Equator.
NO, it isn't. The fact that many liberals resist a certain position DOES NOT make it a conservative position (this is why the war is not a conservative position either, even though nearly all conservatives support it and many liberals oppose it).
Wagglebee, you still havent answered the question; why is one deified and the other villified? What are the specific criteria? You keep trying to change the subject and call your fellow-brain-dead into the thus-far-very one-sided debate, but you havent answered the question.
Reagan had character and integrity, Rooty doesn't.
Come out and say it, youre brand of conservative only wants:
A Constitutional Amendment against Abortion
Prayer in the public schools
Flamethrowers and hand grenades for everyone
To shoot the Queers and Mexicans
Cmon, you know youre dying to say it...
1. Yes, I would love to see an amendment protecting the sanctity of life.
2. Yes, I believe that prayer in public schools should be permitted but not mandatory.
3. You are typical of most anti-Second Amendment types who think that everyone wants to own heavy artillery.
4. I have NEVER advocated harming homosexuals or illegal immigrants in any way. It is crap like this that has Bill O'Reilly calling this a hate site. You are pathetic.
ibtz
The Viking Kitties will have the last laugh, though.
They are issues that will be worked out by the processes of Classical Liberalism, i.e. free and open debate and the consent of the governed.
Wrong. Abortion on demand, homosexual rights, and gun control are in direct violation of classical liberalism.
Wikipedia Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1] and laissez-faire liberalism[2]) is a doctrine stressing the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, constitutional limitations of government, free markets, and individual freedom
Please show me where the positions held by Rudy fit into this.
Your opposition to even diuscussing these things (except on your own terms, that is, to ban them because they dont conform to your vision of what is right) is closer to socialism than anything I can think of at the moment.
Abortion, gun control, and homosexual rights are positions that are incompatible to our Constitutional Republic and traditions.
WHO is it that you think deserves a zot?
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:
Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
Im pro-choice. Im pro-gay rights, Giuliani said. He was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions. No, I have not supported that, and I dont see my position on that changing, he responded. Source: CNN.com, Inside Politics Dec 2, 1999 http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Rudy_Giuliani_Abortion.htmANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES (November 14, 2006)
RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: I'm pro- choice. I'm pro-gay rights.KING: Giuliani supports a woman's right to an abortion, and back in 1999, he opposed a federal ban on late-term abortions.
GIULIANI: No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position on that changing.
KING: Immigration could be another presidential landmine. Back in 1996, Mayor Giuliani went to federal court to challenge new federal laws requiring the city to inform the federal government about illegal immigrants.
JEFFREY: He took the side of illegal immigrants in New York City against the Republican Congress.
KING: Giuliani opposes same-sex marriage but as mayor, he supported civil unions and extending health and other benefits to gay couples. He also supported the assault weapons ban and other gun control measures opposed by the National Rifle Association.
GIULIANI: I'm in favor of gun control. I'm pro-choice.
Republican Big-Wigs Support Pro-Abortion Event in NY
Pro-abortion Governor George Pataki and New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who also supports unrestricted abortion, are co-chairs of the 2000 Choice Award Presentation to be held on May 30 at the St. Regis Hotel in New York City. The event is sponsored by the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition, a group that is campaigning for the removal of the pro-life plank from the Republican National Platform.
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200503010743.asp
Everything is always “under the microscope” for everyone who runs for President, and it comes with the territory. Hiding anything from the general public is automatically going to make many people suspicious of such Presidential candidates.
“Sorry, you’re wrong with this blanket opinion.”
My mother has been divorced twice, and was not allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church because divorce is a sin (the same for my uncle with his second wife). My wife was divorced, and had been drummed out of her Baptist congregation, when I met her (this in my first, and so far as I’m conerned ONLY marriage).
Neither is, in my opinion, a person of weak character who cannot be trusted to make decisions that affect my life and that of my family.
It’s not a “blanket opinion” when I’ve seen it first hand and know it exists.
At the first Republican debate in May, Giuliani was alone among the GOP candidates in offering a less-than-robust affirmation when asked whether it would be a good day if the Supreme Court overturned the Roe v. Wade ruling.
"It would be OK," Giuliani said. "It would be OK to repeal it."
But, he added: "It would be OK also if a strict constructionist viewed it as precedent" and kept the law intact.
“To many Christians, divorce is a sin, no matter who started it.”
So what is your faith, if not Christian? What are your opinions on guns, taxes, gays, abortion and issues of interest to most conservative Christians?
How do you try to reason that the situation was better if Reagan’s wife initiated the divorce? Usually the person initiating the divorce is not the person that screwed up.
see #26
My mother has been divorced twice, and was not allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church because divorce is a sin (the same for my uncle with his second wife).The sin the Church helped your mother avoid was adultery.
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