Posted on 07/28/2007 6:00:30 PM PDT by blam
1m-years-old footprints found at Margalla Hills
By Sher Baz Khan
ISLAMABAD, July 27: In what appears to be a major discovery, archaeologists have found two over one million years old human footprints preserved on a sandstone at the Margalla Hills.
The Indusians Research Cell, which is working under the supervision of world renowned archaeologist and historian Dr Ahmad Hassan Dani of Taxila Institute of Asian Civilisations, Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad, has made the discovery, which is likely to add a new chapter to the archaeological history and heritage of the federal capital and attract visitors.
A footprint of 1 feet is in complete and well preserved form while another is broken from the finger side which is also of the same size in comparative manner. The notable marks of the feet are the clear veins and opposite folded appearance.
“A huge stone on the top of the hill is the secure home of these prints since about over one million years ago,” says A.K. Azad, an archaeologist and head of the project.
Further research may give more clues of the foot marks through anthropological and geophysical methods, he observed.
The recent discovery is the continuity of the Indusian Research Cell’s earlier research about human evolution which previously revealed a fossilised upper jaw from the site of Dhudhumber, foot and hand prints from Attock and Palaeolithic cave from Margalla hills.
Pakistan’s geomorphologic research was conducted to compare with the Alps of Europe during the period of 1930-1939 by a French mission. Since then, lots of other dimensions of the research opened the doors of scientific research in Pakistan as the country provided the glacial sequence, fossilised evidences of Pre-Cambrian to Holocene epochs, earliest evidences of the anthropoid existence, earliest cultural centre at Mehargarh (contemporary of Jericho and Jarmo) and most advanced civilisation of the world (Indus valley).
Indusians Research Cell started the second phase of the project “Post-earthquake Explorations of Human Remains in Margalla Hills” under the supervision of A.K. Azad.
According to Mr Azad the formation of the Margalla Hills goes back to the Miocene epoch. The dominant limestone of the Margalla is also mixed with the sand stone.
“So we can assume that due to availability of the water in ancient times many marks of the zoological as well botanical significance may lead to our objectives,” the young archaeologist hopes.
In 1976, Pakistan opened another chapter of human evolution, which makes case for Asian anthropoid origin from this region.
During the ‘60s and ‘70s, Pilbeam led expeditions to the Siwalik Hills badlands of northern Pakistan, searching for further Ramapithecine remains.
In March 1975 and January 1976 team members made surface recoveries of four bone fragments which fit together to form the most complete mandible recovered yet. The mandible shows that Ramapithecus did not have a parabolic, human like dental arcade, as originally thought, but rather a V-shaped, more apelike arcade. Though the shape of the arcade is not now regarded as one of the more anatomically important characters, Ramapithecus is no longer granted the high status that it once received.
Different scholars have defined the word ‘Potohar’ differently. But, anthropological research marked it, as the grand father of hominid, also known as Punjabicus found from the Potohar region.
So the government of Pakistan had given the name to this specie Potoharmans.
According to Mr Azad, the problem of human evolution is still hanging around that when and where Anthropoid got physical changes from the Apes?
After India, Kenya and China, he says important discovery was from the Potohar region from fossils of the similar species found in 1976 and 1982. The probable dating given to this specie was 20 million years.
“It has provided a missing link, which was spread of 6 million years. So Potoharmans declared as the grand father of hominid, which evolved from the different stages and reached at the Homo sapiens,” he observes.
The stories behind the similar marks are also significant in mythical associations with saints and renowned people i.e. hand prints of the Baba Guru Nanik near Hassanabdal, foot prints of Hazrat Ali in Hyderabad, foot prints of the Guru Padma Sambhava (Second reincarnation of Buddha) in Swat, Adam’s peak of Sri Lanka etc.
“If these are true than we can also claim of the mother Eve’s foot prints from Margalla Hills,” Mr Azad observed.
[[What you seem to be saying is that all opinions are of the same value. That is both doltish and dishonest]]
No sir- that’s not what I’m saying- so let’s move away from the ‘you’re being dishonest’ accusations because we’re misunderstanding one another. I specifically said in last post that there is some merrit to investigating the evidences we do have- and forming opinions
[[No one having the ability and willingness to understand the evidence doubts the age of the earth.]]
That’s not true- As I mentioned in another post- there are good evidences to support counter opinions to old age earth as well- folks hwo indeed do understand the evidences and who do indeed see a problem with old age evidences and the systems used to annalyze the evidences.
False. There are physical differences between and among races, ranging from skin color to stature and everything in between. At least that is what I learned in my human races classes.
If you disagree it would be well to provide some evidence.
bb: I see no reason why you should have, in a geology course.
That is a truly astounding statement. Given the tremendous power of water to alter the landscape you see no reason for a flood of global proportions, the flood of all floods, to be discussed in a geology class?
bb: post #225 And all the evidence has come to light??? We are sure of that? The future holds no surprises along these lines?
You make it sound like the one overwhelmingly earth-altering event since its creation left so little evidence that it's going to require thousands more years of searching and the invention of new intruments with vastly greater ability to detect the subtle signs of its occurrence.
Of course if someone did find physical evidence of a world wide flood they would only be imputing a relationship there. /s
Historical sciences such as anthropology (or Darwinian evolution theory) do not have the benefit of contemporaneous observation of the events they describe. Controlled experiments cannot be done on materials that are not contemporaneous. They work from necessarily incomplete data, relying on artifacts (fossils) to support their conjectures.
Physics, on the other hand, does not work in this way -- until it gets into the area of cosmology, and quite a few physicists are looking into that these days. And then the history of the universe becomes very important.
You wrote: "In essence what you said before is that human perceptions are too unreliable to trust any conclusion that a human comes to regarding causal relationships. It follows then that if observation is moot then science is moot."
You have so exaggerated what I said as to have turned it into a caricature. In essence what I said before is that we have no certainty as to the reliability of our knowledge, because our observations must ever be partial. But because observation is partial -- in a double sense -- incomplete, does not make it "moot." It is usually the first step in knowledge acquisition and, as such, is indispensable.
I say "in a double sense" because (1) we select what we observe from an a much larger set of observational possibilities, and by our selection, all unselected data are "occluded," dropped from consciousness, and no longer available to our attention, at least during the observational event. This is the "objective" or objectifying aspect or dimension of the problem. The excluded data may be relevant to our concerns nonetheless.
And (2) our choice of what to observe is basically motivated by what personally interests us. What doesn't interest us is not usually observed by us. This is the "subjective" aspect or dimension. Again, the "uninteresting" stuff may still be relevant to the question we entertain.
So like Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his own limitations."
We cannot simply declare that conjectures drawn from a limited perspective and less than complete evidence are facts.
Not if there's no physical evidence to make the Great Flood conjecture interesting or fruitful for science. And very recently I was assured not only that there is no such physical evidence, but that there cannot be any such.
I thought that was a pretty astounding statement.
I thought part of the business of science was to keep the presuppositions down to the bare minimum. We're supposed to be "finding out," in a process of free inquiry, not "proving" our preconceived notions, disclosed or undisclosed (possibly even to ourselves).
I was making reference to the post where someone stated that geology was started to prove the great flood.
Sure we examined the impact of large bodies of water, floods and rising and falling oceans. One only need fly over the US to see evidence of the water that once covered the great plains. The rush of that flood must have been something to witness.
I don’t dispute that someone, sometime caused us to come into existence. I simply think it was a long, long time ago. Just because some aged Englishman wrote some nice words in the time of King James, I don’t accept that the timeline is only 4,000...I don’t see where the vernal equinox is mentioned anywhere.
Some stuff makes sense, and some stuff doesnt.
O.K... Domestic dogs are all dogs they just look different..
Domestic cats are all cats they just look different..
The Race of humans divides humans on even less criteria than dogs and cats.. An Eskimo, Pygmy, Watusi, and citizen of Boston or Detroit are the same "kind".. Race in humans has been conflated to mean far more than it really does.. I think it stems from various Eugenic memes.. Ideas built on false data.. and databases..
Or maybe he just armed us with the intellect to figure it out ourselves.
Except, of course for the people who refuse to use it, and fight its revelations every step of the way.
Its not a matter of interesting or fruitful -- if the evidence is there it would come out. Period! There would be anomalies all over the place that defy explanation unless the global flood idea is considered. That type of evidence would have been found many years ago, and it has not been found.
And very recently I was assured not only that there is no such physical evidence, but that there cannot be any such.
I thought that was a pretty astounding statement.
I agree, that doesn't sound right. When I am out digging, I am always looking for something new and different. When I find new things, I try to fit them into existing frameworks. If they do not fit, I explore changing those frameworks as little as possible to fit the new evidence. If such a fit can't be made, those frameworks have to be modified or discarded. That is generally how science works.
If I could find, and could document, a global flood, I would be the next Einstein. Or at least the next Schliemann. But I have excavated many sites which cross the date given by biblical scholars for the flood, and the evidence wasn't there. Rather, the evidence was for cultural, biological, sedimentological, and faunal/floral continuity.
Who says that Noahs flood was "global"?.. or all at once..
OR that "A" meteor caused it.. it could have been multiple meteors..
Or even concurrent meteors, earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis.. in a cascade effect..
Agreed.
An Eskimo, Pygmy, Watusi, and citizen of Boston or Detroit are the same "kind"..
They are the same species and subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens. "Kind" is a religious term with no application in science.
Race in humans has been conflated to mean far more than it really does..
Race is an interesting study, but in human or cultural terms it means little. But it does show how evolution works through natural selection.
I think it stems from various Eugenic memes.. Ideas built on false data.. and databases..
The problems associated with "race" stem from human ignorance and prejudice. The more one studies race and races, and the more one learns about the subject, the more one realizes that "racial" differences are insignificant -- except in relation to a particular environment. For example, dark skin is better in extremely hot climates, while very light skin is better in the northern latitudes where sunlight is weak, and vitamin D production is critical to survival.
I have never read or heard of another interpretation of Noah's flood before. Isn't the Bible itself fairly clear in its wording on the extent of the flooding?
OR that "A" meteor caused it.. it could have been multiple meteors.. Or even concurrent meteors, earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis.. in a cascade effect..
How does that address the questions I asked about why a geology class would not be interested in such a tremendous cataclysmic event or how it is that the evidence of it is so subtle that it may have been missed by all the researchers so far? What you describe still seems to beg those questions.
[.. They are the same species and subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens. “Kind” is a religious term with no application in science. ..]
LoL.. Thats why I used it(”Kind”).. but the term is meaningful..
Pretty insightful of “bronze aged” knuckle draggers that wrote the bible eh!..
They didn’t have the term “species”’..
Job talked of the earth hanging in space on nothing is precient..
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html
There are other examples too, noted in the url.. “Kind” works just fine even today..
28 centuries ago talking of the earth hanging “as a sphere” in space was a hidden “meme”.. Who could grasp the reality of it?.. THEN...
Even today one wonders what “God” could share with us today IF “we” were able to concieve or process it?.. Like the ending chapters of the Book of Revelation.. Little wonder Jesus spoke mainly in metaphor.. not only but mostly.. Speaking about what “life” is.. spiritually.. If there “are” spirits, what are they?.. Does a carrot have a spirit?.. Are there levels/kinds of spirit(life).. That would make species and genera(on earth) metaphors of what life really is.. i.e. species of spirit.. Interesting thought, to me..
If true then scientists are in for an “OH MY GOD, if I would have only known” moment at some future time..
It couldn't have been much of a flood if it didn't. Or do you believe those who told you no evidence could exist? You must also believe that hundreds of researchers, scientists among them, have not been able to find any clear evidence of a great cataclysmic flood encompassing the world. Given man's ability to impute causal relationships where they don't exist and make them believable it can't be that hard to find the consequences of a real mega-flood.
Einstein is cool.
The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description... If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism.Albert Einstein
Inquiring minds want to know stuff..
Geology teachers are mostly just making a living..
There are many things almost impossible to know without time travel..
Fiction MUST be very logical and make sense..
Reality does not have to be logical -OR- make sense..
This is the scientists Achilles heel..
Boy howdy!!!
Feel free to present some of the evidence, but please start by sumarizing the arguments in your own words.
But they still teach geology. It's hard to believe they would skip over the greatest terra-re-forming event ever to occur. The teachers teach what the researchers find and teachers usually go for the most exciting things their given field has to offer.
Reality does not have to be logical -OR- make sense..
Spiritual realities? No. Physical realities? Mostly. Water and gravity work in fairly predictable ways on earth, sand and rock.
"Kind" is a religious term, based on scripture, that has failed to account for the evidence found by modern science. It misses little things like common descent, as shown by genetic studies. (Duh!)
Why else has the study of "kinds" been transformed into "baraminology" (the study of created kinds) in an attempt to make it seem more scientific?
But that effort has failed. The reason: in its rules of classification, baraminology gives the greatest weight to scripture!
It's nothing more than religion in a new package, seeking to fool the unwary and the uneducated. Much like ID!
That's a great observation, hosepipe. Especially in light of the fact that the "whole world" at the time of the compilation of Holy Scripture didn't consist of much beyond the eastern part of the Mediterranean basin and its immediate environs. The idea of the whole world being the whole globe of the planet did not then exist. So we need not be speaking of a "global flood," just something of the nature alleged to have swallowed up Atlantis.
BTW, my conjecture regarding the Atlantis myth is: Plato made it up out of whole cloth. :^) But it's one dandy story! But if it is true, the remains of Atlantis would likely be found in the Mediterranean, not off the eastern seaboard of the United States.
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