Posted on 06/24/2007 4:47:14 AM PDT by Lukasz
“Therefore it would have been worth a try not to betray the Poles.”
Failure to initiate WWIII against Russia with the Empire of Japan still intact and Germany in chaos doesn’t amount to betrayal. Using your logic, the United States betrayed not just Poland, but Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, and all other nations living under Soviet oppression during the cold war. The U.S. weren’t even under obligation to liberate western Europe, much less all of Europe and Russia as well. You paint an unfair portrayal of America and her history by accusing her of betrayal.
The Poles were allies and friends from the very beginning who fought for the freedom of the UK and for the interests of the US like lions. A main reason why those Poles lost 20% of their population between 1939 - 1945 was the fact that they imposed the hardest resistance on nazi Germany you can think of. If this kind of resistance would have never happened, the D-day and the allied victory would not have been possible in 1944. The Poles, the Serbs and the Czechs weakend the nazi regime in a decisive way and Hitler had to wore out his forces in the oppression of those people. They sacrificed themselves for the US and the UK because they believed into being rescued and into the alliance that was declared by the UK on the 6th April of 1939 in the case of a war.
The occupation of Poland and Czechoslovakia was quite expensive for the occupiers and after the subtraction of the costs there was absolutely no benefit but a high toll on blood and material. Furthermore those Polish, Slovak, Serbian and Czech freedom fighters bond lots of German troops that could have been used on the western front against America and its allies.
The Poles would not have fought against the German millitary machine that much if they would have known that they are huckstered to "Uncle Joe", who erasured their intelligentsia in Katyn. Stalin and Hitler were on a par. Since America and the UK always concillated the conception of being members of the "western civilized family" to the Poles and declared alliances with them, it was indeed a shame- and reckless betrayal to leave them with a shrug of the shoulders in Stalin's little shop of horrors.
Shame on your leaders for doing that. I have lots of sympathy for Churchill and Roosevelt, but Yalta was the most fundamental mistake in their lives.
P.S.
Same could be said about other eastern Europeans, but the Poles were those who were declared allies of the Brits.
Yep. Germany has a small flotilla (to my knowlege 2 frigates and a few speedboats) deployed there to help the Lebanese controlling their coast. They are part of the UN mission.
A broad disaffection with the Aznar government.
It is indeed true that the Aznar gouvernment provided a much better economic policy than the current socialist BS of Zapatero. Therefore many Spaniards were in favour of them. Nevertheless Aznar was obviously unable to provide security since he engaged himself in a war that was not wanted by his voters. It is difficult to explain your people to bring civillian sacrifices for a war if 79% of them are against it. That is democracy. Leaders who act against the will of their people are simply overruled. This is what happened to Aznar.
Again, you got a great advantange for 3/11 (read carefully), the European Constitution was signed soon thereafter. Don't try to hide it.
No damage without a benefit. Of course many friends of the European cause were quite happy that Aznar disappeared in the nowhere, but NOBODY (and I mean really NOBODY) ever welcomed the terrorplots in Spain because of that. Such a claim is ridicolous.
You say: "The war in Iraq had nothing to do with 3/11,"
Interesting. The American administration once declared that they attacked Iraq because of their links to Al Quaida and 9/11.
Aznar government was going to win the National Election and somebody organized a coup to avoid that. The major beneficiares where clearly France and Germany, because the European Constitution was signed soon thereafter, whilst Aznar had blocked it. The dynamite used is not Spanish, but European.
I hear your hidden claim in those lines that the bad bad German and French secret services (probably a mixture of Gestapo, BND, STASI, Deuxième Bureau and DGSE) are behind his reckless and primitive terror plot to force Spain into the European constitution. This proposition is as ridicoulus as the weird claim that "the Jews" are behind 9/11. Of course Germany and France have some common interests. Nevertheless you can be assured that we would not murder 191 innocent people of a friendly nation just to have a treaty signed. Since such conspiracy (if it ever would exist) comes to surface sooner or later, the damage for Germany and France would be horrendous then. Since we have some quite responsible people in our governments left such involvement is therefore extremely unlikely and implausible. Besides - if pro-Aznar Spainards like you think that such BS is possible why is your (once) mighty leader such a friend of NATO and even the EU as long it developed the antiquated economy of Spain after its joining. You should not forget that Germany and France are both members in all those organisations and declared friends of Spain. It is grotty even think that such is possible. Shame on you!
I don't want a Europe based in deception, manipulation and murder, but Freedom and Justice. I am afraid others simply want an Europe where, it doesn't matter how, Germany prevails.
Just take into your consideration that Germany and its administration also could stand for a Europe based on freedom and justice and that your friend with his walrus moustache and those twins from poland might stand for the opposite. Do you have any proof for your backstabbing theory? Is it possible that you are the victim of a stone old propaganda trick? Yes I am sure that Germany and its friends will prevail in the long term but I am also convinced that this is in the basic interest of Europe.
it must read like this:
"The American administration once declared that they attacked Iraq among other causes because of their links to Al Quaida and 9/11."
“P.S. By the way, do the Germans still perceive Eastern Europeans somehow inferior to them?”
In fact some do but the majority never did - but you certainly can’t say germans do that. It’s people. Stupid people i.e. hardly a german phenomenon.
Especially in the eastern part that suffered a long time from brain bleeding it’s no wonder the unemployed get the idea that the hard working and struggling poles are taking away their jobs - but these jobs are jobs germans wouldn’t do (we tried to let unemployed help harvesting groceries - but they just didn’t show up for work).
You can’t name a country without that tendencies.
So we got an increased propability of skin head disease occuring in the east - thank god the upturning economy will need some of them to shovel sand or point to a sign so they are busy thinking hard.
Poles in my social class (beeing arrogant to be brief here) have the image of beeing hard working clever guys. No wonder because the more clever and busy people have a higher tendency to emigrate to the higher paychecks.
I just had an encounter with an ukrainian girl newly employed in my company. She speaks 5 languages - 3 of them without noticable accent. She’s got a master in economy and will help us in russia. Good looking (to say the least) - highly empathic - 3 professors of physics in her family - origin: Kiev - Hobies: traveling around the world with a backpack - mainly in asia.
I wasn’t surprised.
So much to prejudices.
“How is one supposed to deal with people, who have, in all seriousness, ordered the government’s children’s affairs commissioner to probe whether the Teletubbies are gay?”
Of course, this is a lie.
of course it is... how could someone assume that k. humiliates poland by riding quixotesque attacks on random targets.
Honestly I’m fed up with German poster in this forum, if distorting stories about Polish affairs give you satisfaction, I wont bother anymore. Anyway, no matter what I would wrote you know better, this is absolutely pointless.
“Why have the US engaged into the the European war theatre then anyway? “
To defeat Nazi Germany. They didn’t even have the means to liberate all of Europe and defeat Russia as well. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t have even bothered to liberate Western Europe and defeat the Nazi regime.
“Were the Brits and the French sympathetic enough to save them from tyranny, but the Poles were not?”
Like I said, if you can think of a way to remove the red army from eastern europe via diplomacy, I’m all ears. Otherwise the only way to do so would be to wage war on the Soviet Union, while Germany was in chaos and the Empire of Japan was still at large. Where would the western allies get the extra troops from (not to mention public support for such an action)? Were they to redeploy them from SE Asia, troops that were already entrenched in battle with the Japanese? How many would it take to defeat the Soveit Union, which spans over half the globe. Driving the Soviets out of Eastern Europe using nukes isn’t practical. Besides, Yalta happened in Feb of ‘45, and the trinity test hadn’t even occured yet.
” If this kind of resistance would have never happened, the D-day and the allied victory would not have been possible in 1944.”
The Germans were preparing to defend Pas de Calais from the impending allied invasion of mainland Europe. It was this deception, combined with their failures on the eastern front, that made the invasion possible. The troops that were deployed to suppress the Warsaw uprising, I imagine that they would have been deployed on the eastern front against the Russians (90% of German war casulties occured on the eastern front). Where did you find that these troops would be deployed not only to the western front, but to repell the real invasion at Normandy? If I were trying to make your arguement, I would cite Poland’s role in breaking the ‘unbreakable’ Enigma as being essential for a successful invasion of mainland Europe. You could argue that without these efforts by the Poles, an invasion would not have been possible in ‘44. But that still doesn’t mean that the U.S. betrayed Poland, or any other Eastern European nation, in any way, shape, or form.
“Since America and the UK always concillated the conception of being members of the “western civilized family” to the Poles and declared alliances with them, it was indeed a shame- and reckless betrayal to leave them with a shrug of the shoulders in Stalin’s little shop of horrors.”
What declared alliance did the U.S. have with Poland during the war? Do you believe that the U.S. had defensive pacts with any European nations at the outbreak of war? And if so, what defensive packs/alliances are you referring to?
Didn’t I say I understood the wish for a square root regulation ?
Didn’t I say that I wish Poland would succeed in its struggle to grow into it’s high potentials ?
Didn’t I say I understand that we have people in germany that have to work on their attitude towards poland ?
the poles broke enigma ?
The US did betray Poland. Roosevelt came out with a proposal to divide Poland first. You can argue that Stalin would do it anyway but this initiative says a lot. Another reason is that the US recognized illegal communist government of Poland and ignored legal one on exile in London.
You know a country important for poland that hasn’t cheated on poland ?
How come you still exist as a nation ?
” Roosevelt came out with a proposal to divide Poland first. “
Source please.
“Another reason is that the US recognized illegal communist government of Poland and ignored legal one on exile in London.”
And the U.S. recognized the other puppet goverments of the Soviet Union as well. The U.S. was never under obligation to free eastern Europe from Soviet tyranny during WWII, so to call it a betrayal is inaccurate. The only way to remove the red army from Poland at this time was to wage war on the Soviets, an obligation that never existed.
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