Posted on 06/23/2007 1:28:02 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
(AP) SALT LAKE CITY -- Mitt Romney said Saturday that criticism of his Mormon religion by rival GOP presidential campaigns is happening too frequently.
“Clearly, any derogatory comments about anyone’s faith—those comments are troubling. The fact they keep on coming up is even more troubling,” Romney said during a fundraising trip in the home state of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Mormon church is one of the fastest-growing religions and claims about 12.5 million members worldwide. But many evangelical Christians in crucial primary states such as Iowa and South Carolina consider the faith a cult.
Romney’s remarks follow an apology from GOP rival John McCain’s campaign for comments about the Mormon church allegedly made this year by a volunteer.
Also recently, Republican presidential hopeful, Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, issued a similar apology for a campaign worker’s e-mail to Iowa Republican leaders that was an apparent attempt to draw unfavorable scrutiny of Romney’s religion. Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani apologized after the New York Sun noted that a campaign aide had forwarded to a blogger a story about unofficial Mormon lore. Legend has it that a Mormon would save the Constitution, the story said. The campaign aide passed the story along with a note: “Thought you’d find this interesting.”
Romney said in a large presidential race there always will be some volunteers or workers who cannot be controlled. But he said the difference between derogatory comments that originated from the McCain campaign and others is that the Arizona senator has not personally apologized to him.
“In the case of Senator Brownback and Mayor Giuliani ... they called immediately. They each spoke with me personally. I don’t have any issue with that at all,” Romney said.
He said McCain “can do whatever he feels is the right thing. There’s no need for me to suggest how people respond to things that go on in the campaign.”
Tucker Bounds, a McCain campaign spokesman, said the McCain campaign has already apologized.
“It’s a very sincere apology. There is absolutely no place for those type of comments in our campaign,” he said.
Romney, a former governor of Massachusetts, said he had not spoken with McCain since the last presidential debate, on June 5.
Romney used a fundraiser hosted by Utah Jazz owner Larry Miller to criticize the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law. It banned unregulated, unlimited contributions from corporations, unions and wealthy individuals to national political parties and federal candidates.
“The bill ought to be repealed,” he said. “It’s been the wrong course for American campaigns.”
Romney said he favors unlimited donations as long as they are immediately disclosed on the Internet.
Romney was attending fundraisers in Salt Lake City and in Logan on Saturday.
> And of course I would not be entertained by your head being cut off
[Bulldust! You offered my headless corpse $10,000 “just for the shear entertainment value.” We have it in writing, on this thread. So you are either a liar now, or you were a liar then. Either way, you are a Liar.]
You know, you are right, if you were idiot enough to follow your own convictions and get your head cut off just to try and prove your point that the Muslim Religion of Peace is the same as Christians, then that certainly would be a perverse entertainment and I doubt I could stop you.
So please, follow your convictions, show us how truly deranged you are.
“But the apocalyptic nut job from Parowan is more credible in your book. “
I said nothing of the sort, you are just fishing like usual. Someone wanted to know about the Prophecy, so I quickly looked for a link that seemed relatively informative, however I also said there were a ton of other links out there.
But the point still stands, even if Parowan is a nut, Mormon philosophy and heritage invites such nuttery to swarm like flies.
FC,
This could be a strong nomination for the 2007 Darwin Awards...
Mormon philosophy and heritage invites such nuttery to swarm like flies.
This thread and many others here on FR certainly prove that point.
Mormons have long held and in fact restated the White Horse Prophecy. I can’t believe that they are now trying to distance themselves from it, even relegating it to some sort of “myth.” Disgusting really.
1854
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 15, Brigham Young, July 4, 1854
Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so.
1855
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 182, Brigham Young, February 18, 1855
Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.
We love the Constitution of our country; it is all we could ask; though in some few instances there might be some amendments made which would better it.
1912
Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912, p. 11
Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty.
1922
Charles W. Nibley, Conference Report, October 1922, p. 40
My brethren and sisters, I hope that we will go home from this conference determined as a great body of people, to stand for law, order, righteousness, justice and peace on earth and good will among all men. I believe as the Prophet Joseph has written, that the day would come when there would be so much of disorder, of secret combinations taking the law into their own hands, tramping upon Constitutional rights and the liberties of the people, that the Constitution would hang as by a thread. Yes, but it will still hang, and there will be enough of good people, many who may not belong to our Church at all, people who have respect for law and for order, and for Constitutional rights, who will rally around with us and save the Constitution. I have never read that that thread would be cut. It will hang; the Constitution will abide and this civilization, that the Lord has caused to be built up, will stand fortified through the power of God, by putting from our hearts all that is evil, or that is wrong in the sight of God, by our living as we should live, acceptable to him.
1928
Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, October 1928, p. 108
The Prophet Joseph told us that he saw the day when even the Constitution of the United States would be torn and hang as by a thread. But, thank the Lord, the thread did not break. He saw the day when this people would be a balance of power to come to its defense. The Book of Mormon prophecies concerning the future of America have been referred to in our hearing during this conference, wherein it is stated that this nation, though it becomes a mighty nation, still it can stand in security here only as it serves the God of this land. That conception was in the hearts of the men who founded America.
1933
Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, April 1933, p. 127
I believe that it is the destiny of the Latter-day Saints to support the Constitution of the United States. The Prophet Joseph Smith is alleged to have said—and I believe he did say it—that the day would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread. But he saw that the thread did not break, thank the Lord, and that the Latter-day Saints would become a balance of power, with others, to preserve that Constitution. If there is—and there is one part of the Constitution hanging as by a thread today—where do the Latter-day Saints belong? Their place is to rally to the support of that Constitution, and maintain it and defend it and support it by their lives and by their vote. Let us not disappoint God nor his prophet. Our place is fixed.
1942
Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, April 1942, p. 87
But beyond all that, the Latter-day Saints have a responsibility, that may be better understood when we recall the prophecy of Joseph Smith who declared that “the time would come when ( the destiny and ) the Constitution of these United States would hang as it were by a thread, and that this people, the sons of Zion, would rise up and save it from threatened destruction.” (J. of D., Vol. 7:15)
I want to ask you to consider the meaning of that prophecy, in the light of the declaration of the prophets of the Book of Mormon times, who declared that this land was a choice land above all other lands, and would be free from bondage and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of this land, even our Savior, Jesus Christ. (Ether 2:12)
1942
J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58
You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.
1946
Mark E. Petersen, Conference Report, April 1946, p. 171
How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. . . . if it is sustained on this land of Joseph, it will be done by us and our posterity. (Ibid., pp. 360,361.)
1948
Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85
It is no wonder that the Prophet Joseph said—even though he knew he would suffer martyrdom in this land—”The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner.”
Yet, according to his contemporaries, he foresaw the time when the destiny of the nation would be in danger and would hang as by a thread. Thank God he did not see the thread break. He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents—the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
1949
Clifford E. Young, Conference Report, April 1949, p. 75-76
I would like to add this in conclusion. It is said that President Brigham Young, many years ago, made this statement:
When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for Mormon elders to save it from utter destruction: and they will step forth and do it. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 2:182, Feb. 18, 1855.)
This is recorded in the Journal of Discourses and I presume it is accurate, but however it may be, is it not a possibility, that this Church, in its great leadership and in the power that will come to it in advocating the things that are divine and are right and true as for example the great welfare program, is not possible that when we as a nation shall have exhausted our resources—and we can well do that if we do not turn about—when we have we have reached that point is it not possible that to us will those who are not of us look for guidance and we will be held up as a people who are pointing an economic way that will mean for the economic and spiritual salvation and blessing of our people.
1950
Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, April 1950, p. 159
I must not take more time but to add this: The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us a correct interpretation wherein he says that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger. Said Orson Hyde:
I believe he said something like this — that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: “If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.” I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. (Journal of Discourses, 6:152.)
Now I tell you it is time the people of the United States were waking up with the understanding that if they don’t save the Constitution from the dangers that threaten it, we will have a change of government.
1952
Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1952, p. 18
It was Joseph Smith who has been quoted as having said that the time would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread and at that time when it was thus in jeopardy, the elders of this Church would step forth and save it from destruction.
Why the elders of this Church? Would it be sacrilegious to paraphrase the words of the Apostle Peter, and say that the Constitution of the United States could be saved by the elders of this Church because this Church and this Church alone has the words of eternal life? We alone know by revelation as to how the Constitution came into being, and we, alone, know by revelation the destiny of this nation. The preservation of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” can be guaranteed upon no other basis than upon a sincere faith and testimony of the divinity of these teachings.
1956
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, p. 326
CONSTITUTION TO HANG BY A THREAD. The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us a correct interpretation wherein he says that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger.
Said Orson Hyde: “I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: ‘If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the elders of this Church.’ I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it.”
1961
Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1961, p. 70
Eleventh: In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” (Journal History, Brigham Young’s Speech, July 4, 1854.)
It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.
1961
Senator Wallace F. Bennett, BYU Speeches, February 15, 1961, p. 13:
We have much in our national system that militates against the rise of a dictator. The Bill of Rights with its philosophy of individual rights against oppression is still a curb on a power-hungry President. But if I were to guess as to how the Constitution may “hang by a thread” it would be because of the immense powers given to the President and his opportunity for their abuse.
Let us delve once again into the great principles of the Constitution and resolve that we will do all in our power to preserve these principles for our posterity. This is our duty as citizens of the United States, and pre-eminently our duty as Latter-day Saints, because without the Constitution this glorious restoration would not have taken place in this land and might not have taken place at this point in history.
1963
Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1963, p. 113:
The Prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when the Constitution would hang as it were by a thread. Modern-day prophets for the last thirty years have been warning us that we have been rapidly moving in that direction. Fortunately, the Prophet Joseph Smith saw the part the elders of Israel would play in this crisis. Will there be some of us who won’t care about saving the Constitution, others who will be blinded by the craftiness of men, and some who will knowingly be working to destroy it? He that has ears to hear and eyes to see can discern by the Spirit and through the words of God’s mouthpiece that our liberties are being taken.
1963
Judge Joseph E. Nelson, BYU Speeches, April 24, 1963, p. 3:
Our government is an organization which was to, and since has, enacted, judged and enforced law through and by legislative, judicial and executive departments. It is encumbent on the American people to steadfastly maintain the historic balance of power by the three branches of government if our political system is to be preserved. If this is not done then the thread by which it has been predicted the Constitution will hang will be clipped and our form of government will disappear. We, the American people, must not become so internationally minded as to sell our birthright for a spurious promise of world peace. The most nationally-minded people are our enemies. We must remain faithful to our pledge, regardless of charges of chauvinism, to preserve America “with our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.”
1964
Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, February 18, 1964, p. 9:
I am concerned that in our worship of materialism in our country we now have an indebtedness of over $5,000 for every man, woman, and child in this country. (This includes obligations for goods already delivered and services already rendered to the government, although payable in the future.) I am concerned that we have in effect abandoned the Monroe Doctrine as our safeguard for ultimate protection of this hemisphere, and that as a result we are threatened with Communism not only in Cuba but in South America and now in Africa as well. If the Constitution is to hang by a thread in this country, I want to be one to help to preserve it.
1966
Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 7:
In my commencement address I gave the language and sources of the prophetic utterance made by the Prophet Joseph that the Constitution of the United States would hang by a single thread, but be saved by the elders of Israel. I hope you will read those sources so you will be well-informed as to this prophecy and be prepared to do your part in its fulfillment.
Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 9:
Now what has happened in our country during the time we have been plunging toward socialism? Are we actually at that point where the Constitution may be hanging by a single thread and we need to step in to save it?
So, if we don’t embrace the White Horse Prophecy, we’re allowing the US to slip into Socialism but if we do, we’re evil deceivers who follow a false prophet. Well, at least you’re consistent.
Either you:
A: Believe the prophesies of Joseph Smith, and stand behind them...
B: Are embarrassed by the so-called prophesies and try to distance yourselves from them...
or
C: Believe the White Horse Prophecy, but know that others will think you’re crazy and so try to make it appear that it never WAS a prophecy...
Which is it Reaganesque? Is it a prophecy or not? Was Joseph Smith a Prophet or not? Will the constitution be saved by a Mormon or not?
So you’re trying to distance yourselves from the prophecies of Joseph Smith and still maintain that a Mormon will “save the constitution”.... I get it (sort of).
Playing both sides. NOW we clearly see exactly where Mitt Romney gets his “play book,” from his religion.
Flippity flop!
Why didn’t Tantiboh answer my question about the occult? I guess he got tired of trying to defend a religion that was founded by a plagarist. The Book of Mormon has all kinds of stories that sound a bit like the Bible. When someone quotes from that book (BoM) instead of the Bible I get a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach.
Was the data WRONG??
I been watched for years as you execute your craftiness which you seem to pride yourself!
The day will come when you stand before the Judgment bar of the God, and the Lord inquires why you always took the role as devil advocate on earth!
A true disciple of Jesus Christ never engages the cunning tools of the opposition!
Pretty crafty answer resty...
Was the data wrong?
It is distorted and I have answered this in the pass on FR as well as others here did answer that question look it up!:)
No repeats for serial repeaters!
I looked it up, and posted quotes taken from the CD-ROM LDS Collectors Library 1997.
I was just pointing out crafty, serial repeaters....LOL
Jesus to Nicodemus (John 3:3-5):
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus to the apostles (Mark 16:15-16)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It sure seems like Jesus taught that baptism was necessary to “enter into the kingdom of God.”
I fail occasionally to be the being His blood testifies I am, but His blood continues to cover me even in those instances and His Spirit returns me to the right relationship with Him as I confess again, and again, and again. He is the one Who is faithful. His righteousness covers me yesterday, today, and tomorrow because He promised that IT would and this lead me to trust in His truthfulness, His faithfulness, HIS integrity, not mine or in my ability to pass trials of works which would be pleasing enough. If there be good works it is due to His indwelling presence, not my abilities to strive against temptation.
When God told the Israelites that He IS God (I Am) and that He knows of no other God or Gods, was God limited in His knowledge of the Universe He created? This is but one of many contradictions in Mormonism which you have been shown, not to mention the lies and false prophecies the Joe Smith conman created. I'm saddened to have to write such bare truth about your chosen leader of your faith, Joseph Smith, but I would be failing in what God commands Christians to do if I played nice and pretended that this false prophet, adulterous, lying, man, Joseph Smith, was okay so long as his duped adherents don't tread on my religious beliefs.
And there is the crux of this ongoing debate, your religion claims Christianity was lost from God's control so badly that Joe Smith had to restore it 'in these latter days'. You and your fellow MORMONS are tangled up in a cult which is so rife with contradictions that even you have to twist and deceive (us and yourself) in order to pretend Mormonism is true and from God. You and your religion claim Smith absolutely necessary to restore something God's Holy Spirit could not maintain for the period from the death of the last Apostle who walked with Jesus until Joe Smith the treasure conman diviner came on the scene to fabricate the book of Mormon, rewrite the Bible to include himself in false prophecies, and direct obedience to 'new laws' and 'new temple ordinances' only the Free Masons were able to create.
You may be offended by my frank remarks, but i offer them out of love, for I have no doubt that God's heart aches for your striving people since we know He would that none perish but find everlasting life through His Son, Jesus Christ.
It appears you Mormonism Apologists want those who oppose the cult you hold dear to shut up and stop hindering the advance of your cultish beliefs. We will not do that and we will continue to cite the LDS sources from which the exposure of your cult may be accomplished. And if you mistakenly believe that somehow your exposing these heresies now while offering a twisted explanation will give Mitt Romney future immunity from the DNC exposing these cultish heresies at just the right time to destroy Romney's candidacy, you are mistaken and a dangerous political movement at this time in America, for you will accomplish the complete take over of government by the worst leftist alive ... you will not get Mitt Romney elected because you cannot inoculate the American people to ignore the heresies of Mormonism, especially given the convoluted deceptions it has become apparent you must employ to try and squelch opposition.
Is that sentence a YES or a NO?
Was the data WRONG??
CUH,
John 3:3-5 - The one thing you inserted in your belief is the
word baptism, which doesn’t appear in the verse. You have
mistaken water for baptism - a common error that fits the
verse to a preexisting belief. No baptism required here.
Actually, MGNinTn gave a very good explanation of amniotic
fluid for the first birth and faith in Christ as the second
birth. You might google it.
for your second verse, I’ll let my friend Tom explain it to you...
Mark 16:16 “This is a verse that some people believe teaches the necessity of water baptism for salvation. However baptism elsewhere in the New Testament is always an outward confession of belief in Jesus Christ. This verse also regards baptism as such. The second part of the verse clearly teaches that unbelief results in condemnation (cf. 9:43–48), not unbelief and failure to undergo baptism. In the first part of the verse one article governs both participles: has believed and has been baptized (NASB) or believes and is baptized (NIV). This indicates the close relationship between believing and being baptized. However they are not inseparable (cf. Rom. 3:21–28; Eph. 2:8–9). Baptism is not a condition for salvation, but it is an important step of obedience for a believing disciple.”
(Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable’s Expository Notes on the Bible (Mk 16:16). Galaxie Software.)
No baptism necessary for salvation. It is a step of obedience
by those who come to place their faith in Christ.
best to you,
ampu
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