Posted on 06/22/2007 10:49:14 AM PDT by pacelvi
What Is The Seventh And The Eight Empire?
"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. Revelation 17:9-11"
Before we procede, I wish here to acknowledge someone who has greatly contributed to my understanding of this issue. His name is Walid Shoebat. He is a former Palestinian terrorist and is the author of Why I left Jihad. I highly recommend this book. It may be ordered through his web site at www.shoebat.com
Beyond the above identification of the nations of Ezekiel 38, the Book of Revelation also confirms the notion that indeed the region of Turkey will be the head of the future Antichrist Empire. Lets examine these passages from the Book of Revelation:
There I saw a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. Revelation 17:3
Here we see the final Beast empire of the Antichrist. The Beast is seen to have seven heads and ten horns. We already know from the Book of Daniel that the ten horns represent the ten nations or kings that will comprise the Antichrist Empire. But the seven heads are seven empires that have existed throughout history that all have been foreshadows of the final empire that is to come. As usual, whenever a prophecy is given in the Bible that may be difficult in its symbolism, the Bible clarifies the symbolism and explains the passage for us:
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. Revelation 17:9-11
Now the seven heads are called seven mountains. The Bible often uses mountains as a symbol representing a kingdom or an empire. But most importantly this passage gives us insight into the fact that before Jesus returns, there will actually have been a total of eight Beast empires. The eighth empire will be ruled by the Antichrist. How can this passage help us gain insight into the identification of the final Antichrist Empire? First, we see that at the time that it was written to John, five of the empires had already fallen. This is seen in the phrase, five have been. These empires are generally accepted by Bible teachers as being the following:
The Egyptian Empire
The Assyrian Empire
The Babylonian Empire
The Persian Empire
The Greek Empire
After these five, the angel tells John that one empire is. At the time that John wrote the Book of Revelation, Rome was. It ruled the Middle East, Northern Africa and much of Europe. Thus the sixth empire was the Roman Empire. The next empire, of course, is the seventh, and then the eighth will be the empire of the Antichrist. So the seventh empire is the empire that we need to identify. Because according to the verse above, it is the eighth empire that will be a resurrection or a revived version of the seventh empire:
The beast who once was, and is not, is an eighth king.
Let me just paraphrase this portion for clarity:
The seventh beast (empire) that existed, but then did not exist, will come back as an eighth empire.
So if we are now waiting for the final eighth empire, then what was the seventh? What empire followed Rome?
Because of the harsh anti-Semitic nature of the German third Reich, some Bible teachers have speculated that Germany was the seventh empire and thus Germany will come back as the eighth. 11
The most common belief however, held almost universally by Bible teachers, is that the Antichrist Empire will be a revived Roman Empire. There are however some glaring problems with this theory: Firstly, Rome was the sixth empire. If Rome was the sixth, and will also be the last, then what happened to the seventh? This theory has a gaping hole. Is Rome the sixth, seventh and the eighth empires? Neither Scripture nor history nor common sense supports this. Secondly, every one of the previous six empires ruled the Middle East, including Jerusalem. This is very important. We must always remember that the Bible is thoroughly Jerusalem centric. It is not America centric, nor is it Western centric. In the biblical view of things, Jerusalem is the center of the earth. This point cannot be underscored enough. Any theory that revolves around a revived Roman Empire based in Europe - for instance on the European Common Market - is a foreign concept to the Bible. Unless the empire rules over or directly affects Jerusalem, it is actually a bit irrelevant to biblical mind-set.
And the third crucial point is that if we look at the first six empires, each succeeding empire either destroyed or absorbed the empire that preceded it. There is a very natural sucession. If we look at each empire, we see that they all fulfill these two characteristics: they ruled over Jerusalem and they defeated or absorbed their predecessor. The Egyptian Empire ruled all of Egypt and Israel as well. But the Assyrian Empire defeated the Egyptian Empire and likewise ruled over a vast portion of the Middle East, including Israel. After this, the Babylonian Empire defeated the Assyrian Empire and became even larger than its predecessor, again, ruling over Israel. Such is the pattern with each successive empire: The Medo/Persian Empire succeeded the Babylonian Empire only to be succeeded by the Greek Empire. The Greek Empire was in turn suceeded by the Roman Empire. Which leads us to the seventh empire. Who overcame the Roman Empire? In order to answer this question, we need to briefly review the fall of the Roman Empire. What exactly happened?
In 395 A.D., The Roman Empire was divided into two portions; the eastern and the western portions. The Eastern portion became known as the Byzantine Empire. In 410 A.D. the western capital city of Rome fell to invading Germanic tribes known as the Visigoths or Barbarians. The western/European half of the Empire including its capital had fallen but the Roman Empire nevertheless continued. How so? It simply shifted its capital and its throne from Rome to Constantinople a thousand miles east. The western European portion of the Roman Empire fell but the Eastern Byzantine portion of the Roman Empire lived on for nearly another thousand years with Constantinople as its capital. The Roman Empire didnt actually completely fall until the eastern portion of the Empire finally fell to the Turks in 1453 A.D. Likewise it was the Islamic Caliphate of Umar Ibn al-Khattab that took Jerusalem in 637. Thus we see that it was the various manifestations of Islamic Empire culminating with the Ottoman Empire that suceeded the Roman Empire and ruled over the entire Middle East, beginning with Jerusalem for over thirteen hundred years. 12 The Turkish Empire existed right up until 1909.
Thus we see that the only empire that fulfills the patterns necessary to be considered the seventh empire is the Turkish/Ottoman Empire. This of course corresponds perfectly with Ezekiels list of nations with such a heavy emphasis on Turkey.
Weegee: I think John agrees with you:
1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This one is the antichrist: the person who denies the Father and the Son.
Qur’an 5:73 “They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no Ilah (God) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this (blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall them - the disbelievers will suffer a painful doom.”
This guy has a book out on the anti-Christ that’s very interesting. The parallels exist to the false prophet, the anti-Christ, the 7 year tribulation, beheadings of saints.
One thing I found interesting is that “Jesus” appears in Muslim eschatology - comes back and defers to the Mahdi (Islamic messiah) - tells followers of Christ that Jesus death never happened, and proceeds to “break the crosses”.
Anyway, good read if you’re interested, particularly in light of current geopolitics.
I have to agree that something will pull the U.S. out of their defense mode of Israel... There have been many in our gov’t who would love to see that happen in recent years. Bush had promised (before his first election) that he would declare Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. That got dropped like a hot rock.....and has never been mentioned again.
“I’d always believed this was more of a metaphor meaning a “spirit of Jezebel”... which doesn’t necessarily infer a “female”.... but an entity of deception and treachery.”
Still fits Hillary! ;)
I was going to include that as a sarcastic remark... but decided to keep it on a more serious note. *chuckle*
I was once thrown out of a baseball game by an empire.
Every single one of the prophechies regarding Jesus first coming were fullfilled in thier most simple literal meanings (or if it was an obvious metaphor, then the most literal meaning of the metaphor)... and so will all the ones regarding the second coming.
It was due to PEOPLE’s disbelief in the simplicity of the prophecies that incredibly difficult metaphoric explanations were devised. If you strip away the 100s of years of incorrect interprative plaque (which is hard to do.. it’s so ingrained in our culture I dont think most of us even realize we hold onto them) and look at the plain meaning of what’s written then I think you get closer to what God wants you to know and not further.
After all, He didn’t write it to be a mystery, he wrote it so that you would know about it.
Actually, it is a frighteningly EASY argument to make.
Did you see this?
As voiced on another thread, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
http://www.greatbabylon.com/page3.html
The author of this link arrived at the very same conclusion that the author of the text of this article did.
I don’t believe there is any connection between them personally.
You are correct, Matthew 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.” There is nothing wrong with trying to figure out how close it is to the end of earth as we know it, but if you are a believer that Jesus is the Son of God you have been given complete instructions as to what you are supposed to be doing until you can not physically perform your duties or He returns.
Does watching a teapot really prevent it from boiling, or does it simply make the observer impatient?
We have to look at interpretations of those metaphors through Jewish eyes...IMHO. What seems to be of face value in our western mindset... speaks totally different to someone connected with the Jewish culture. I've had many interesting conversations where they actually give you evidence that Jesus WAS who He said He was....without getting the connection themselves. :)
The author might want to begin by reading the book of Danial.
I agree with you 100%.
He has.
Here’s some more back up for Islam = Beast Empire
Muslims believe:
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch04_the_mahdi.htm
The Mahdi is Islams primary messiah figure.
He will be a descendant of Muhammad and will bear Muhammads name (Muhammad bin Abdullah).
He will be a very devout Muslim.
He will be an unparalleled spiritual, political and military world leader.
He will emerge after a period of great turmoil and suffering upon the earth.
He will establish justice and righteousness throughout the world and eradicate tyranny and oppression.
He will be the Caliph and Imam (vice-regent and leader) of Muslims worldwide
He will lead a world revolution and establish a new world order.
He will lead military action against all those who oppose him.
He will invade many countries.
He will make a seven year peace treaty with a Jew of priestly lineage.
He will conquer Israel for Islam and lead the faithful Muslims in a final slaughter/battle against Jews.
He will establish the new Islamic world headquarters from Jerusalem.
He will rule for seven years (possibly as much as eight or nine).
He will cause Islam to be the only religion practiced on the earth.
He will appear riding a white horse (possibly symbolic).
He will discover some previously undiscovered biblical manuscripts that he will use to argue with the Jews and cause some Jews to convert to Islam.
He will also re-discover the Ark of the Covenant from the Sea of Galilee, which he will bring to Jerusalem.
He will have supernatural power from Allah over the wind and the rain and crops.
He will posses and distribute enormous amounts of wealth.
He will be loved by all the people of the earth.
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch18_a_summary_of_comparisons.htm
Bible: The Antichrist is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader that will that emerge in the last-days.
Islam: The Mahdi is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader that will emerge in the last-days.
Bible: the False Prophet is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days who will support the Antichrist.
Islam: the Muslim Jesus is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days to support the Mahdi.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet together will have a powerful army that will do great damage to the earth in an effort to subdue every nation and dominate the World.
Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will have a powerful army that will attempt to control every nation of the earth and dominate the World.
Bible: The False Prophet is described essentially as a dragon in lambs clothing.
Islam: The Muslim Jesus literally comes bearing the name of the one that the world knows as The Lamb of God: Jesus Christ. Yet the Muslim Jesus comes to murder all those who do not submit to Islam.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet establish a New World Order.
Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus establish a New World Order.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet institute new laws for the whole earth.
Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus institute Islamic law all over the earth.
Bible: The Antichrist is said to change the times.
Islam: It is quite certain that if the Mahdi established Islam all over the earth, he would discontinue the use of Saturday and Sunday as the weekend or days of rest but rather Friday, the holy day of Islam. Also, he would most certainly eliminate the Gregorian calendar (A.D.), and replace it with the Islamic calendar (A. H.) as is used in every Islamic country.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will both be powerful religious leaders who will attempt to institute a universal world religion.
Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will institute Islam as the only religion in the earth.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will execute anyone who does not submit to their world religion.
Islam: Likewise, the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will execute anyone who does not submit to Islam.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will specifically use beheading as the primary means of execution for non-conformists.
Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will use the Islamic practice of beheading for executions.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will have a specific agenda to kill as many Jews as possible.
Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will kill as many Jews as is possible until only a few are left hiding behind rocks and trees.
Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will attack to conquer and seize Jerusalem.
Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will attack to re-conquer and seize Jerusalem for Islam.
Bible: The Antichrist will set himself up in the Jewish temple as his seat of authority.
Islam: The Mahdi will establish the Islamic Caliphate from Jerusalem.
Bible: The False Prophet is said to do many miracles to deceive as many as possible into supporting the Antichrist.
Islam: The Mahdi himself is said to control the weather and the crops. His face is said to glow. We can also assume that since Jesus is viewed as having been empowered by Allah to work miracles when he was here on earth the first time, he will most likely be expected to continue to do so when he returns.
Bible: The Antichrist is described as riding on a white horse in the Book of Revelation
Islam: The Mahdi is described as riding on a white horse (ironically from the same verse).
Bible: The Antichrist is said to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years.
Islam: The Mahdi is said to make a peace treaty through a Jew (specifically a Levite) for exactly seven years.
Bible: Jesus the Jewish Messiah will return to defend the Jews in Israel from a military attack from a vast coalition of nations led by the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
Islam: The Dajjal, the Islamic Antichrist will gain a great Jewish following and claim to be Jesus Christ and fight against the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus.
Bible: The antichrist spirit specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.
Islam: Islam doctrinally and spiritually specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.
Bible: The primary warning of Jesus and the Apostle Paul was to warn Christians of the abundance of deceit and deception in the last-days.
Islam: Islam is perhaps the only religion in the earth that practices deceit as one of its tools to assist its own ascendancy. It actually has a specific doctrine which allows and even calls for deception to be used to achieve its desired end.
Bible: The specific nations pictured in the Bible as being part of the final empire of the Antichrist are all Islamic nations.
Islam: All Muslims are commanded to give their allegiance to The Mahdi as the final Caliph and Imam (leader) of Islam.
Bible: From the Bible and History we learn that the final Antichrist empire will be a revived version of the Empire that succeeds the Roman Empire
Islam: The Empire that succeeded the Roman/Byzantine Empire was the Islamic Ottoman Empire
Bible: When Antichrist emerges, there will already be some form of system in place that will be poised to receive him as a Savior and to give allegiance to him.
Islam: is already the second largest religion and will at present growth rates become the largest religion within a few decades. Islam is awaiting the coming of the Mahdi with a universal anticipation
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