Posted on 06/11/2007 7:20:30 AM PDT by VictoryGal
No, he is trapped in a bubble of unreality. Consider ...
““I believe the votes were there, and some senators felt like they needed more time,” Gutierrez said. “This is first and foremost a national security bill. The reality is the law is weak, and this bill makes the law stronger.”
... this statement is laughable in its absurdity. Even the Clinton White House wouldn’t get this untethered from ground reality..
“Without legislation to stop the continued flow of illegals into this country, you will have many more.”
Thankfully, the legislation that can cut the flow of illegals by 95% was passed in the last Congress. It’s the 800 mile border fence. BUILD IT AND THEY WON’T COME.
“Killing this legislation is tantamount to giving amnesty to those already here. “
McCain tried that lie out, but it has a big logical hole:
If amnesty/legalization is not a good thing, then WHY IS GIVING AMNESTY A GOOD THING?!?! You cannot be against amnesty and for this bill. The ‘de facto’ amnesty claim is a claim that govt cannot deport people today. That is a lie. The Govt can deport people, but it WONT. It WONT build the wall. It WONT enforce the law.
This bad Senate bill lets 12 million people stay, for a small fee. It does NOTHING to deport anybody, in fact it WEAKENS deportation ability. The comprehensive bill is designed and built to fail.
“One would almost come to the conclusion that the rabid attacks on President Bush were for the purpose of making sure nothing gets done to stop illegal immigration.”
One would be wrong. ALL BUSH HAS TO DO IS BUILD THE BORDER FENCE AND ENFORCE THE LAW. No new laws are needed to do much much better on this issue than status quo. Bush has failed spectacularly from showing any interest in enforcing the law properly.
What you wrote made me think of that phrase in old “cowboy and Indian” movies when the Indian would say (regarding an action or a situation): “It’s bad medicine.” That is what I think of this bill: bad medicine.
No, I don't trust the House because it is under the control of liberal democrats. The House is different from the Senate as the House only requires a simple majority to get anything done. The minority party in the House has almost no power to stop legislation.
The fact of the matter is that Bush and the GOP Senators have lined up on the same side as the liberal democrats.
I am sure none of this is news to you, however, so it's not clear why you are going through such mental gymnastics.
> This bad Senate bill lets 12 million people stay, for a small fee. It does NOTHING to deport anybody, in fact it WEAKENS deportation ability. The comprehensive bill is designed and built to fail.
Exactly. It’s as if we had a rampant theft problem, and we tried to address it NOT BY ENFORCING THE LAW, but by saying thieves could register themselves for a small fee and get their records cleared eventually.
Yeah. That would work. /s
Isn’t it great how W is so worried about Iraq’s borders and sends our guys across the world to defend them? /sarc
God bless your housemate’s son. These are crazy times.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TANKS a Bunch,,,And yes these are very crazy times,,,
Hopefully this “bill” will be killed before it “kills” the
USA as we know it,,,
HA! I could think of a consonant that might also work....
It's not changing the Constitution at will. Think of those amendments which specifically state "the right of the people shall not be infringed", which specifically state "hands off", yet are regulated by laws enacted by Congress. The 14th in section 5 specifically gives Congress the power, through legislation, to enforce the amendment and by legislation may issue clarification or regulation as to whom may be considered a citizen as the whole amendment is subject to section 5.
IMHO neither mclame nor Rudy are the true front runners. The media can hype, but it is the primary voter that elects our nominee. Money... the RNC will get none from me until we have a Conservative candidate to back. I am not alone... and I am a huge contributor.
LLS
Do you REALLY believe the Framers intended that the "person" would be born of Foreign Nationals, as opposed to those who had entered the country ILLEGALLY just to drop an "anchor" and/or to avail themselves of the BENEFITS of citizenship, vs. those who were here to make a life in the United States and assimilate and become U.S. Citizens LEGALLY?
If amnesty can be defined by your anti Bush side as an undeported illegal, then is it not amnesty if they can stay here anyway? I do not think that this is a good bill, but I disagree that one is not needed. Do you think that the govt can deport 12 million illegals, or whatever number is currently in play, without huge intervention from every corner of the legal establishment? You cannot pick and choose who will have to go unless they all are rounded up simultaneously and a ‘a trail of tears’ ensues. President Bush is not a king or a dictator, he works thru our elected representatives, tho that is what it would take to satisfy his no compromise haters. Nothing will be enforced unless there is a consensus, codified by legislation, about what the immigration rules will be.
This bill provides for the process which will enable enforcement of employer compliance with the law. The reason employers are not now doing so is not necessarily because they choose not to. There is no mechanism for employers to trace or have access to the information they need when hiring workers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It’s too easy to check the ID/Green Card/DL# of anybody in this day and age and has been in the past,,,
It’s called a telephone,,,verify or else,,,Why Do That ??
At $10,000 fine per person(86 Law) they WILL comply with the
Law Of The Land,,,
Build The Damn Fence !!! Enforce The LAW !!
“If amnesty can be defined by your anti Bush side as an undeported illegal, then is it not amnesty if they can stay here anyway?”
Objection: I am *not* anti-Bush. I voted for him twice, volunteered and worked polls and put up signs. I even marched around the Governors mansion in support of him becoming President.
You are foolish to make this immigration debate as a pro/con on Bush. Bush has decided to delude himself on this issue, but that doesnt make opponents of this *KENNEDY-WRITTEN SENATE BILL* somehow Bush apostates. we are being far more consistent in our Republican conservative law-and-order limited-govt stop-a-huge-hit-on-taxpayers and defend-American-sovereignty that is under attack by this bill.
Now ....
“If amnesty can be defined by your anti Bush side as an undeported illegal, then is it not amnesty if they can stay here anyway?”
1) The penalty for being in this country illegally is deportation, so any disposition of an illegal alien in custody other than deportation is a form of amnesty.
2) If someone is here illegally, they are here illegally, period. It is not amnesty until their legal status changes.
2) If you know of cases where we have illegal aliens in our custody, then we dont deport them, yes, that is amnesty. Thus:
- when we have local law enforcement not deport aliens caught and jailed for petty crimes
- when we do ‘catch and release’ (John Lee Malvo for example)
Will this bill stop these amnesties? NO! It will make them worse! Did you notice the Coleman amendment, that was voted down? All it asked was for local law enforcement to inform the federal govt of immigration status of people in their custody. Yet it was voted down.
Can President Bush stop these amnesties without any change in law? YES! The existence of ‘sanctuary cities’ is already against Federal law! All Bush needs to do is threaten to cut off law enforcement funds in exchange for compliance of this law. All Bush needs to do is end catch and release fully. All he needs to do is help the Border patrol, pardon the BP agents who are serving 12 years for attempting to stop a drug smuggler (an outrageous injustice even beyond the Libby case), all he needs to do is expedite the border fence, tell ICE to quit pampering the corrupt employers of illegal aliens, and get serious.
“Do you think that the govt can deport 12 million illegals, or whatever number is currently in play, without huge intervention from every corner of the legal establishment?”
Do you think every murder case in America can be solved?
No? Do you then throw up your hands and give amnesty to all murderers? How many do *you* think the Govt is able to deport in one year? have you examined the Eisenhower precedent? how many do you *want* deported?
Do you think Government *cant* deport more illegal aliens, or Government *wont* deport more illegal aliens?
“You cannot pick and choose who will have to go “
Why not? Why cant you enforce the law to the extent possible with the ICE resources you have, while also selaing hte border, and let the attrition do its work, as we deport at least the 600,000 with existing deportation court orders and the 100,000+ criminal aliens, and the 1 million+ who engaged in ID fraud.
Have you considered a middle ground solution:
#1) Build the border fence, which will cut border crossings 95%.
#2) Enforce the law with vigor in the workplace and in jails, wherein we deport every criminal alien.
#3) before you do anything else, wait 12 months. The number of illegal aliens will certainly be smaller and you can solve the full problem without amnesty
You still need: End anchor babies; Change from chain migration to employer based immigration; give local law enforcement more help in enforcing laws; tamper-proof verification; a rule that no more than 5% of immigrants should come from any one country. all those can wait. What matters is the border fence and an end to massive illegal immigration from unchecked border crossings.
“President Bush is not a king or a dictator, he works thru our elected representatives”
I told our FReeper friends that 2 years ago when they were claiming Bush wasnt doing enough... Then last year, in a PR bid to boost the chances of the immigration bill, he sent 5,000 National Guard troops to the Mexican border. IF HE CAN DO THAT, HE CAN DO WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO TO STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!
3 out of the 6 terrorists in the Fort Dix plot were illegal immigrants. You think if the Feds found a terror group, they’d sit on their hands? Of course not. It’s a matter of WILLPOWER. If Bush has the will to enforce laws on the books today, he could drastically reduce illegal immigration.
“Nothing will be enforced unless there is a consensus, codified by legislation, about what the immigration rules will be.”
There are ALREADY LAWS ON THE BOOKS! That is why we call them ‘illegal immigrants’ because they are breaking those laws. Bush has it in his power to much more vigorously enforce the laws that exist.
Newt Gingrich has noted that VISA and Mastercard can verify the security of transaction for pennies on the dollar with a cheap plastic card and a database. The technical answer is simple: Do it the way they do it.
You dont even need a tamper-proof ID. All you need is a database to align numbers, identities and other forms of ID. Millions of phony numbers and identities could be exposed in short order.
Yet the Government “cant” verfiy if a person is who they say they are?
This despite the fact that there are millions of bogus SocSec numbers on IRS computers, “mismatches”, and the IRS knows it, just doesnt tell ICE.
That’s beyond a sick, sad, pathetic joke. Anyone who defends these piss-poor excuses for our failure to enforce basic law is either in on the corruption/incompetence or blind to it.
What a fantastic solution. The phone call will of course verify that the ID presented to the employer is legitimate. You must have missed the part of bill that addressed how the verification process would be handled.
BUMP-DAT...
Despite the observation of back bencher Newt Gingrich, it is a fact that identity theft is a growing concern. Or perhaps corporations are wasting huge amounts of money on protecting their computer systems from hacking and other types of corporate theft. Just one example of Newt’s self serving short sightedness. The bill provides for the set up of a verification process specific to immigration and on the scale needed for that purpose. If employers are going to be held accountable, they must be given the tools to do their part in enforcing compliance with govt regulations. Continue to be as stubborn as your side claims Pres Bush to be and nothing will be done until the RATS get their chance to throw open the borders and give you more of what you do not want. What you deem inconsequential to immigration happens to be of concern to many of the legislators in both parties, as well as voters in both parties. This is not the best bill, but Republicans are no longer in the majority and must compromise more than they might want. Hopefully, if brought back up the bill will be amended to address the concerns which the electorate has.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.