The fact that these three are standing together and behaving quite differently is evidence (to me) that they were the only smart ones. They knew what a disaster that "Beverly Hillbillies End of Show Waving Shot" was.
Posted on 04/07/2007 4:26:42 AM PDT by SkyPilot
April 7, 2007 -- A SOLDIER'S law in the U.S. Army holds: "The maxi mum effective range of an excuse is zero meters." Yesterday, the two officers on a panel of former British hostages delivered nothing but excuses for their disgraceful conduct.
(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...
The SERE program was very tough...physcologically and physically, and I came away with bruises and lost 5-pounds...and was not overweight. Good training, and apparently the Brits do not have such a program.
They should be embarrassed.
Born to Fly: the Heroic Story of Downed U.S. Navy Pilot Lt. Shane Osborn
America has few heroes. I just don't like seeing them trashed.
Iran got terrorists released from U.S. custody, now have great propaganda footage, got their own way in every particular, and still look “magnanimous” for releasing them.
Touche! BB, how dare you call out an internet commando.
There was no disgrace here, only questions of judgment.
I question John effin Kerry’s judgment too. And Johnny Benedict Murtha’s judgement too. And in Murtha’s case, I’ll call him a disgrace.
But you have to admit, their being accorded hero status for no other reason than we are slim on heros, is not good military practice and can be counter productive.
And in this case, no trashing of the man, just the decisions that lead up to what, in my opinion, is a solidification of a decline in standards.
Just an old sailor’s opinion, discount it any way you see fit.
It has been a good debate, I have seen your posts before, and there is more we agree on than disagree.
Have a good Easter.
Thanks for reminding us of the heroic acts of Lt Shane Osborn.
The British troops were doing a UN-sponsored Coast Guard-type function of ship inspection. I think that they were not in any mental frame of mind to consider themselves POWs in a Geneva Convention style.
I still am heartsick at what their behavior might tell us about Brit mental attitude today.
I cant believe that they would agree to give up their uniforms, for example.
First, I have to agree with 'gator. I know of no AC commander, no Recon driver (I knew several quite well), and no policy that puts "land at the enemy's airfield" on a par with "use parachute" (I did that also), "ditch", or simply "destroy the darn thing".
Way back when I DO remember a rumor that in many instances U2 drivers didn't have a choice regarding the last option.
I was also impressed by the official report offering (1) an AC too damaged to remain in the air but (2) buzzing the airfield before doing a 270 turn and landing, intact, on the same airfield.
Aside from that;
What struck me in the recent instance were the several comments about the military 'being their job' - well, yes and no.
It's frequently said the the military's job is breaking things, killing things, etc. But if it's only a job you can expect just what we got from the employees in this case.
The news people were incredibly easy during the interview and got what they wanted. I'd have loved to hear someone ask if any of the troops could recite any part of a code of conduct for them. (Why were there only six in the presser...was there some disagreement within the team?).
Regarding information given to one's captors, there is a reasonable time period after which some information is no longer critical. However, handing over confessions, propaganda films, letters, and later justifying it with 'solitary confinement', blindfolds, and three meals a day (and ciggies, don't forget the ciggies), after only a couple of days is just downright lame.
Even their account of the capture sounded limp. "They bumped us", "trained RPGs on us", and "they couldn't be reasoned with" would sound fine for a bus driver, not for an officer in the Royal Navy and damn sure not for an officer in anybody's Marines.
The Navy Lt. went so far as to say that "The Iranians are not our enemy"...
What else to you call someone pointing a gun at you and representing a country that arms and supports the guys who were busy killing four of your countrymen during the same period?
And, note, IIRC, the Brits killed most recently in Iraq included two women. If you insist on sending women into harm's way you'd better get over that "mommy" thing and make sure they are soldiers.
Long rant, sorry, and, no I don't know what I'd have done in their place but I pray it would have been different.
What Osborn did was amazing, which is why he was awarded the the DFC for "for heroism and extraordinary achievement in flight." His aircraft was heavily damaged and it was a remarkable feat to land it. The Chinese pilot died in the collision. He didn't "buzz" the airfield. Once again with feeling,
On this third pass the Chinese pilot apparently miscalculated; either trying to stop closure or as a result of being too slow, the F-8’s right wing came up, hitting the EP-3’s No 1 propeller. The tailfin of the F-8 then drove the EP-3 port aileron full up, causing the US aircraft to snap-roll near inverted at three to four times the aircraft’s maximum roll rate using maximum aileron. Lt Osborn said his initial thought at this point was: “This guy just killed us.” He said he could look up through the aircraft’s windshield and see the ocean.
The nose of the F-8, meanwhile, had suffered an impact with the EP-3’s radome and the Chinese fighter had broken apart, although a parachute sighted by the EP-3 crew suggests that Wang Wei had managed to eject.
Meanwhile, the EP-3’s No 1 engine was flaming out due to the damage it had sustained, the radome had exploded due to the F-8 impact and the aircraft had depressurized. All airspeed and altimeter information had been lost due to damaged or lost probes, and the aircraft was vibrating violently due to damage to the No 1 and No 3 prop and the tailplane. The aircraft’s high-frequency radio wire had separated and was wrapped around the elevator trim.
By now, such was the extent of the damage to the EP-3 that it was taking maximum effort from both pilots to bring the aircraft level and still took ‘cherry lights’ (maximum power, or ‘red-lining’, on the three remaining engines) as well as full right aileron to initially hold the wings level. The EP-3 had rolled to a 130 degree angle of bank with 30 degrees nose down, finally recovering at an estimated altitude of 15,000ft but still having a 3,000ft/minute rate of descent despite maximum power.
The flight crew’s greatest concern at this point was separation of the No 1 propeller due to high vibration, despite their attempts to feather it. Lt Osborn apparently ordered the crew to prepare to bail out until he had finally recovered control. He then commanded the crew to prepare to ditch before assessing the extent of damage and the question of to what degree he could control the aircraft. The aircraft’s descent was finally arrested at around 8,000ft.
Having regained (relative) control of the aircraft, Lt Osborn and his flightcrew selected an emergency landing at the nearest field as their best possible option. This turned out to be Lingshui airbase on Hainan Island since the nearest allied fields were over 600 nautical miles away. The option of ditching, given the level of damage the aircraft had sustained and the tenuous degree of control maintained, would almost certainly have led to a number of the 24 crewmembers losing their lives.
On the approach to the airfield Lt Osborn made 10 to 15 guard (emergency VHF channel) calls outlining his intentions and predicament but was unable to hear any response due to air noise in the cockpit caused by holes in the pressure bulkhead. Being careful not to overfly land until he had Lingshui airfield in sight, Lt Osborn then overflew the runway at a perpendicular angle to check it was free of any obstacles and to make his intentions clear. He then turned the aircraft through 270 degrees and made a 170 knot ground speed, no flap, high gross weight (49,000kg), no trim, no KIAS landing with a damaged left aileron, damaged elevator, high drag due to the unfeathered No 1 propeller and full right aileron.
LT Osborn achieved his hero status the old fashioned way, he earned it.
Have a good Easter as well. Cheers.
Throat cutting was not simulated. One of the men vomited when they were facing the wall..others thought maybe a throat was cut when they heard vomit hit the ground.
Ok. Still pretty awful to endure that.
It was scary but they should have kept their mouths shut and their hands in their pockets.
They should have beat the crap out of themselves in confinement to at least make the Iranians seem to have abused their rights. They should have done something... anything... but instead they wet their british panties.
Union Jack with no balls to play.
Good point. My understanding is that such considerations made the Israelis change their policies about service women. Nature will out!
I'm not ready to condemn all 15 until I know exactly which ones cooperated with Iran and which ones didn't. I'd have to say that a series of three photos posted here on FR:
show a definite division in cooperation among the group. I'm hoping that there were at least a few sailors/marines who chose not to go with the flow. And I'm guessing, that those that did cooperate willingly, will be shunned and ignored by the bulk of their fellow sailors/marines. At least one can hope they will be.
The fact that these three are standing together and behaving quite differently is evidence (to me) that they were the only smart ones. They knew what a disaster that "Beverly Hillbillies End of Show Waving Shot" was.
I recall something like that. I think it was in Col George "Bud" Day's book Return With Honor. He recounts how an American Naval Officer did something like that when he knew he was going to be used for propaganda purposes. As the French film crew was setting up, he put the side of his face into a corner wall. It immediately swelled up. 20 minutes later, the French and North Vietnamese came to drag him to the propaganda conference and were livid.
Here's my comment on another thread about a real hero who fought hard to keep himself and others from being taken captive in Iraq in 2003:
"All I can think of is the incident in March 2003 involving the group of soldiers from the 507th Maintenance, who took a wrong turn and ended up being ambused by Iraqi soldiers. That was the group that Jessica Lynch was originally a part of. I recall the story of Pfc. Patrick Miller, who fought back against his would-be captors, killing at least one or two before being taken prisoner.
According to Miller's info on Wikipedia, "Prior to his capture, Miller had stood his ground firing at the Iraqis with a malfunctioning weapon, feeding bullets into it by hand to protect two wounded comrades. A U.S. Army press release said Miller jumped from his vehicle and began firing on a mortar position that he believed was about to open fire on his convoy."
It goes on to say: "After he was captured, he was repeatedly questioned about radio frequencies that were written on pieces of paper inside his helmet. "Thinking on his feet, Pfc. Miller told his captors that they were prices for water pumps," the release said. "Disgusted, the captors threw frequencies and his helmet into the fire."
From my own recollection, I believe it was Miller who stated after being rescued that he would drive his captors crazy by singing the song "Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue." Pretty gusty if you ask me.
Besides the Purple Heart and Prisoner of War medal, he received the Silver Star for his actions. He is quoted as having said: ""It's good to know that you actually did something to save other people's lives," he says. "But for me, as far as people saying that I'm a hero, I don't feel that I'm a hero. Because I feel that I was doing my job as a soldier."
It was a good rant, and I agree with everything you posted.
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