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To: M Kehoe; Al Gator; kabar; SkyPilot
I only went to Survival School - E&E and eating bugs - so my references to torture etc. are from slightly aside.
I did time in both AF and USA so I do have some appropriate references:

First, I have to agree with 'gator. I know of no AC commander, no Recon driver (I knew several quite well), and no policy that puts "land at the enemy's airfield" on a par with "use parachute" (I did that also), "ditch", or simply "destroy the darn thing".
Way back when I DO remember a rumor that in many instances U2 drivers didn't have a choice regarding the last option.

I was also impressed by the official report offering (1) an AC too damaged to remain in the air but (2) buzzing the airfield before doing a 270 turn and landing, intact, on the same airfield.

Aside from that;
What struck me in the recent instance were the several comments about the military 'being their job' - well, yes and no.
It's frequently said the the military's job is breaking things, killing things, etc. But if it's only a job you can expect just what we got from the employees in this case.

The news people were incredibly easy during the interview and got what they wanted. I'd have loved to hear someone ask if any of the troops could recite any part of a code of conduct for them. (Why were there only six in the presser...was there some disagreement within the team?).

Regarding information given to one's captors, there is a reasonable time period after which some information is no longer critical. However, handing over confessions, propaganda films, letters, and later justifying it with 'solitary confinement', blindfolds, and three meals a day (and ciggies, don't forget the ciggies), after only a couple of days is just downright lame.

Even their account of the capture sounded limp. "They bumped us", "trained RPGs on us", and "they couldn't be reasoned with" would sound fine for a bus driver, not for an officer in the Royal Navy and damn sure not for an officer in anybody's Marines.

The Navy Lt. went so far as to say that "The Iranians are not our enemy"...
What else to you call someone pointing a gun at you and representing a country that arms and supports the guys who were busy killing four of your countrymen during the same period?

And, note, IIRC, the Brits killed most recently in Iraq included two women. If you insist on sending women into harm's way you'd better get over that "mommy" thing and make sure they are soldiers.

Long rant, sorry, and, no I don't know what I'd have done in their place but I pray it would have been different.

87 posted on 04/07/2007 8:37:05 AM PDT by norton
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To: norton
I was also impressed by the official report offering (1) an AC too damaged to remain in the air but (2) buzzing the airfield before doing a 270 turn and landing, intact, on the same airfield.

What Osborn did was amazing, which is why he was awarded the the DFC for "for heroism and extraordinary achievement in flight." His aircraft was heavily damaged and it was a remarkable feat to land it. The Chinese pilot died in the collision. He didn't "buzz" the airfield. Once again with feeling,

On this third pass the Chinese pilot apparently miscalculated; either trying to stop closure or as a result of being too slow, the F-8’s right wing came up, hitting the EP-3’s No 1 propeller. The tailfin of the F-8 then drove the EP-3 port aileron full up, causing the US aircraft to snap-roll near inverted at three to four times the aircraft’s maximum roll rate using maximum aileron. Lt Osborn said his initial thought at this point was: “This guy just killed us.” He said he could look up through the aircraft’s windshield and see the ocean.

The nose of the F-8, meanwhile, had suffered an impact with the EP-3’s radome and the Chinese fighter had broken apart, although a parachute sighted by the EP-3 crew suggests that Wang Wei had managed to eject.

Meanwhile, the EP-3’s No 1 engine was flaming out due to the damage it had sustained, the radome had exploded due to the F-8 impact and the aircraft had depressurized. All airspeed and altimeter information had been lost due to damaged or lost probes, and the aircraft was vibrating violently due to damage to the No 1 and No 3 prop and the tailplane. The aircraft’s high-frequency radio wire had separated and was wrapped around the elevator trim.

By now, such was the extent of the damage to the EP-3 that it was taking maximum effort from both pilots to bring the aircraft level and still took ‘cherry lights’ (maximum power, or ‘red-lining’, on the three remaining engines) as well as full right aileron to initially hold the wings level. The EP-3 had rolled to a 130 degree angle of bank with 30 degrees nose down, finally recovering at an estimated altitude of 15,000ft but still having a 3,000ft/minute rate of descent despite maximum power.

The flight crew’s greatest concern at this point was separation of the No 1 propeller due to high vibration, despite their attempts to feather it. Lt Osborn apparently ordered the crew to prepare to bail out until he had finally recovered control. He then commanded the crew to prepare to ditch before assessing the extent of damage and the question of to what degree he could control the aircraft. The aircraft’s descent was finally arrested at around 8,000ft.

Having regained (relative) control of the aircraft, Lt Osborn and his flightcrew selected an emergency landing at the nearest field as their best possible option. This turned out to be Lingshui airbase on Hainan Island since the nearest allied fields were over 600 nautical miles away. The option of ditching, given the level of damage the aircraft had sustained and the tenuous degree of control maintained, would almost certainly have led to a number of the 24 crewmembers losing their lives.

On the approach to the airfield Lt Osborn made 10 to 15 guard (emergency VHF channel) calls outlining his intentions and predicament but was unable to hear any response due to air noise in the cockpit caused by holes in the pressure bulkhead. Being careful not to overfly land until he had Lingshui airfield in sight, Lt Osborn then overflew the runway at a perpendicular angle to check it was free of any obstacles and to make his intentions clear. He then turned the aircraft through 270 degrees and made a 170 knot ground speed, no flap, high gross weight (49,000kg), no trim, no KIAS landing with a damaged left aileron, damaged elevator, high drag due to the unfeathered No 1 propeller and full right aileron.

88 posted on 04/07/2007 9:35:36 AM PDT by kabar
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To: norton

It was a good rant, and I agree with everything you posted.


100 posted on 04/07/2007 10:17:52 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: norton

Thank you for that great post, norton.


107 posted on 04/07/2007 10:48:34 AM PDT by Howlin (Honk if you like Fred Thompson!!!)
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To: norton
Good morning. Good rant. It was a good thread. Someone should send it to the Royal Marines...

5.56mm

120 posted on 04/08/2007 4:37:57 AM PDT by M Kehoe
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