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Atheists Split Over Message
The Las Vegas Sun ^ | March 30,2007 | JAY LINDSAY

Posted on 03/30/2007 6:20:58 PM PDT by buccaneer81

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To: GraniteStateConservative
You cannot prove that there is not a Creator. Assuming the Big Bang theory (or any other universe-starting theory) is true, who created the matter that became the universe? Can anything create itself? Anything that exists was created. And anything created needs a being (or beings) that gives it motion. Simply saying, "well bad things/good people blah blah blah" doesn't cut it. If you agree that there is an order to the universe, to our solar system, to our planet, to our very DNA, then you have to agree that there is One who directed these things to their right order. And if there is a right order to things, then using things to their right order is the height of morality, which has been conveyed by God to man first by the Ten Commandments, and secondly by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If there is no right order, there is no God, and thus, by definition, no moral guidelines by which man should bother conducting himself. So, by merely obeying the law, you are expressing belief in God. Furthermor, man could not "order" his own biology. He could not "order" his own consciousness before his conception. This order is passed on and on and on through the birth parents, of which there are - logically - a first man and a first woman who began the human race. Now from whom did they receive their ordered being? It had to be from God. No one else could possibly provide it.

Really, without God, we really are just zombies. If that's the one thing you choose to believe in, your conflict is your own doing.

Since we have no rhyme or reason to bad people getting their just desserts in this life and none to good people having over-the-top bad things happen to them, there can be no expectation that things are different when we die.

What could be a more just dessert for bad people than ETERNAL punishment? You seem to want less than that.

Belief in God is all about hope, which is a selfish motivation-- although it's natural. Having hope makes us more comfortable. It's not grounded in reality, though. It's a sort of crutch to get through the day. Jessica's family knows now what Jessica discovered inside a trash bag-- there is no hope. It's not real.

That's strange. Hope is a selfish motivation? Greed and lust and jealousy and envy and pride are all selfish motivation, but how did you come up with hope as a selfish motivation? It IS possible to love your enemies, and it IS possible to have hopes for them when you know you will receive nothing in return.

If Jessica is in heaven, what greater hope can there be? Projecting your atheistic views on Jessica Lunsford is mighty selfish on your own part, don'tcha think? It gives you greater validation of your own views to use her terrible death as a crutch for your despair.

141 posted on 03/31/2007 11:09:02 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Rutles4Ever
You cannot prove that there is not a Creator. Assuming the Big Bang theory (or any other universe-starting theory) is true, who created the matter that became the universe? Can anything create itself? Anything that exists was created.
  1. You can't prove there is one.
  2. Existence is, and always has been. There is no creation, only change and transformation.
  3. Nothing can create itself. The fundamental principle of existence is the distinction. In order for there to be nothing, there must be a distinction between nothing and not-nothing. But a distinction is different than nothing, and so Nothing is not a possible state of existence globally (although it is possible locally.)
  4. If anything that exists was created, then God was created, since he also exists. Of course, that raises the question, "Who created God?" And whatever answer is given to that question is subject to the same question, "Who created that?" There is no transitive closure to that sequence of questions and answers--which is why reality must be eternal.

142 posted on 04/01/2007 12:31:15 AM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: Rutles4Ever
You cannot prove that there is not a Creator. Assuming the Big Bang theory (or any other universe-starting theory) is true, who created the matter that became the universe? Can anything create itself? Anything that exists was created. And anything created needs a being (or beings) that gives it motion.

You believe that God didn't need a creator, that he created himself.

Simply saying, "well bad things/good people blah blah blah" doesn't cut it. If you agree that there is an order to the universe, to our solar system, to our planet, to our very DNA, then you have to agree that there is One who directed these things to their right order.

You're saying that it's impossible for the universe to have things of advanced structure randomly, but you believe that a creator has/had advanced structure-- far more advanced than anything we are aware of, if you're right-- randomly and out of nothing. Human DNA's existence is much more probable than God DNA (or whatever is his structure).

If there is no right order, there is no God, and thus, by definition, no moral guidelines by which man should bother conducting himself.

Basic golden rule morality is necessary for creating a society (keeping the social contract) and it's actually a system that is beneficial to the person and not just to others-- as it's sort of an insurance policy (be good to others, treat them the way you want to be treated in case you need to be treated nicely because you're in a bind). It's symbiotic. These relationships are found in nature, and those organisms don't believe in God.

What could be a more just dessert for bad people than ETERNAL punishment? You seem to want less than that.

My point was that people want to believe that bad people will be tortured forever, but the reason for believing that is because of a desire and not reason or any facts. Just because you want something to be true, that isn't evidence that it is true. People are just unhappy with the truth sometimes. The universe doesn't owe us justice or anything. In fact, the evidence suggests that since the known world operates in such a way that things we wished wouldn't happen, do in fact happen, that we should not assume that things are different in some other life created by the same entity. Why would the rules be different? If you believe in the universe having perfect order, that would be order. As an aside, the universe and the Earth and humans have many flaws-- which would seem to trim away evidence for any intelligent design.

That's strange. Hope is a selfish motivation? Greed and lust and jealousy and envy and pride are all selfish motivation, but how did you come up with hope as a selfish motivation? It IS possible to love your enemies, and it IS possible to have hopes for them when you know you will receive nothing in return.

What I meant is that, like the kid who believes in Santa Claus because he wants the presents on Christmas morning (which is a reason for belief based on selfishness and not on reason or evidence), the same applies to hope. Hope is something that makes us feel good, like a drug. People don't want to give up that drug because they like how they feel when they use it. It doesn't mean that using that drug is the best course of action. It's easy to believe in hope because it gives you a high.

If Jessica is in heaven, what greater hope can there be? Projecting your atheistic views on Jessica Lunsford is mighty selfish on your own part, don'tcha think? It gives you greater validation of your own views to use her terrible death as a crutch for your despair.

If God wanted Jessica dead, he could have used a softer touch. He killed a fly with a sledgehammer. I'm not at all in despair, actually. I'm a very happy and upbeat person.

143 posted on 04/01/2007 6:49:08 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: Tribune7
I never really thought of it as such, but good and evil exist and we have an innate understanding of them. And since good and evil exist there will be a meting of justice to make things right.

It depends on your definitions of those things. I could argue that God has done more evil things than any human. There are people who do good and who do bad, all at various times. There is no indication-- none-- that there is cosmic justice that rewards good and punishes evil. So, it's not rational to believe in "good" and "evil" in the way you mention.

It is silly to think there can be any kind of expectation of what things are like after we die basing our assumptions on this life.

It's no more silly to make expectations based on stories in a book. There are many religions and they have varying-- wildly-- beliefs about the afterlife. None has any more logic than another.

144 posted on 04/01/2007 6:58:59 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: GraniteStateConservative
It depends on your definitions of those things.

Good and evil don't depend on one's definition. If that were the case one could define things like killing or raping children as "good" (and this has been defined as such by some) and things like feeding the starving as "evil" (and this has been defined as such by some).

I could argue that God has done more evil things than any human.

No, you literally cannot.

145 posted on 04/01/2007 7:05:14 AM PDT by Tribune7 (A bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet)
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To: sourcery; Sherman Logan
Agnosticism is an intellectually defensible position. Atheism is not.

Depends on your definition of 'atheism.' If by atheism you refer to militant atheism, where the possibility that any sort of deity might exist is denied in principle, then you are correct. But that definition of atheism is a strawman lacking any utility, since few 'atheists' are actually that dogmatic and closed-minded.

If a self described "atheist" is not 100% certain that there is no God then, by definition, he is an agnostic.

Being a true atheist requires more blind faith than was shown by St. Thomas.

146 posted on 04/01/2007 7:15:43 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: Polybius
If a self described "atheist" is not 100% certain that there is no God then, by definition, he is an agnostic.

Sir, I have the right to define both what I believe, and the term to be used to describe that belief. Just as do you. I don't tell you what term to use to describe your belief, philosophy or religion, and I expect you to accord me the same courtesy.

147 posted on 04/01/2007 9:51:51 AM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: sourcery
If a self described "atheist" is not 100% certain that there is no God then, by definition, he is an agnostic.

Sir, I have the right to define both what I believe, and the term to be used to describe that belief. Just as do you. I don't tell you what term to use to describe your belief, philosophy or religion, and I expect you to accord me the same courtesy.

I have no idea what you are but I surely won't know by your use of English words in a context where they mean whatever you choose them to mean.

I myself am an agnostic by the English dictionary definition; "One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism." with "true atheism" being the 100% certainty, no doubt about it, belief that there is no God.

You may call yourself whatever you please but that does not change the English language.

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." ...... Abrahan Lincoln

148 posted on 04/01/2007 11:19:22 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: Polybius
I myself am an agnostic by the English dictionary definition; "One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism." with "true atheism" being the 100% certainty, no doubt about it, belief that there is no God.

The Dictionary says: "a·the·ist, n. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

Note that it explicitly says nothing at all about the degree of certainty, nor about whether the belief is held as an article of faith that is not subject to challenge (i.e, as a fundamental axiom taken as true without proof.)

The idea that atheism requires any faith is a calumny not supported by the dictionary, nor by the usual understanding self-professed atheists typically have of their own philosophical position.

But you are, of course, free to understand the term as you wish.

149 posted on 04/01/2007 12:38:14 PM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: sourcery
The Dictionary says: "a·the·ist, n. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings." ........... Note that it explicitly says nothing at all about the degree of certainty ............

So, by that standard, a frightened Catholic priest that denies that he believes in God when a Communist Commissar puts a gun to his head is an "atheist".

By that standard, Bill Clinton, who stated in no uncertain terms that he "did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinski" was a "faithful" husband.

The dictionary definitions of "atheist" and "faithful" assume that the person in question actually says what he means and means what he says in regards to his religious beliefs or his extramarital conduct.

Therefore, Clinton, the self-described faithful husband is unfaithful regardless of what words he mouths and the self-described atheist who is not certain whether God actually exists or not is an agnostic and not a true atheist no matter what words he mouths.

Of course, we can now start debating what the meaning of the word "is" is.

150 posted on 04/01/2007 1:10:24 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: sourcery
"If anything that exists was created, then God was created, since he also exists."

That's not good logic.

"In order for there to be nothing, there must be a distinction."

No. If there is nothing, then that's all there is. It's called the empty set. The quantity of all things that exist is zero.

"The fundamental principle of existence is the distinction."

Distinction is a concept, and regards the fact that individual things that exist can be differentiated. Distinguiability occurs when the first thing other than nothing exists.

151 posted on 04/01/2007 1:35:29 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: GAB-1955

In a WIRED magazine that came out a few months ago, they had an article on the "NEW ATHEISM" movement. The intellectual fathers of this movement were all academic men who had decided that it was time for full out destruction of modern religions. They even went so far as to promote removing children from their parents in order to make sure they were not indoctrinated into religion. These gentlemen included the author of the "GOD DELUSION" book, and seemed to be in agreement that they had to make all people embarrassed to even mention God or a belief in God. This strategy is being carried out by their true followers in the MSM by attacking Christianity every Easter by stressing that Jesus was not who he claimed to be but just another man. As we know from prior events, the MSM is quite comfortable whacking Christianity vs. another religion like Islam, so Christianity will be the first religion to get the full treatment.

To summarize, this new atheism approach outlined by the academic elite, will be heavily promoted in our future by the media and entertainment types as part of their strategy to get rid of religion in general. I fully expect this type of nonsense to escalate much like the global warming propaganda.


152 posted on 04/01/2007 1:51:00 PM PDT by Gen-X-Dad
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To: spunkets
<sourcery>"If anything that exists was created, then God was created, since he also exists."</sourcery>

That's not good logic.

It is a contradiction to say all of the following:

  1. For all X, if x exists, then x was created.
  2. God exists (and therefore satisfies the first predicate)
  3. God was not created

If you can show otherwise, I and the world of logicians would really like to see that proof.

<sourcery>In order for there to be nothing, there must be a distinction.</sourcery>

No. If there is nothing, then that's all there is. It's called the empty set. The quantity of all things that exist is zero.

In order for there to be an empty set, it must exist. The empty set is distinct form nothing. Therefore, nothing can only exist locally (relative to some context,) and cannot exist universally.

<sourcery>The fundamental principle of existence is the distinction.</sourcery>

Distinction is a concept, and regards the fact that individual things that exist can be differentiated. Distinguiability occurs when the first thing other than nothing exists.

Nothing is also a concept, as are 'exist,' 'fact', 'proof,' and 'thing.'

Distinction does not exist as a side effect of the existence of different things. Different things exist as a side effect of distinction/differentiation (or alternatively, both things and distinctions are co-causitive.)

153 posted on 04/01/2007 2:06:48 PM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: Gen-X-Dad
The "new athiesm" is as much allied against radical Islamism as we are against religious fundamentalism of any stripe.

More so, in fact. Because while radical Christians only foster ignorance and bigotry, only Radical Islam advocates murder in its name.

154 posted on 04/01/2007 2:11:17 PM PDT by Wormwood (Future Former Freeper)
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To: sourcery
Existence is, and always has been.

Whose existence?

155 posted on 04/01/2007 2:14:08 PM PDT by Tribune7 (A bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet)
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To: Tribune7
<sourcery>Existence is, and always has been.</sourcery>

Whose existence?

Reality has always existed. Its fundamental mode of operation is the distinction, such as the distinction between past, present and future. Thus there is change and transformation.

156 posted on 04/01/2007 2:19:16 PM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: sourcery
Re: "If anything that exists was created, then God was created, since he also exists."
That's not good logic.

"It is a contradiction to say all of the following:
1. For all X, if x exists, then x was created.
2. God exists (and therefore satisfies the first predicate)
3. God was not created

Your logic does not apply to God. He was not created, so your number one is bad.

Re: If there is nothing, then that's all there is. It's called the empty set. The quantity of all things that exist is zero.

"In order for there to be an empty set, it must exist. The empty set is distinct form nothing. Therefore, nothing can only exist locally (relative to some context,) and cannot exist universally."

The empty set is a rational construction used to describe something. The empty set can not exist w/o someone to ponder it and in fact can not if there is nothing. There are no distinct forms of nothing. Nothing is indistinguishable from itself.

nothing = nothing.

There are no subsets in the empty set, because each would be equivalent to the empty set.

"Distinction does not exist as a side effect of the existence of different things. Different things exist as a side effect of distinction/differentiation (or alternatively, both things and distinctions are co-causitive.)"

Distinction depends on distinguish ability, which is a property of things. Nothing is indistinguishable from itself, and also any subset of it. That is because it is it's own unique identity. That means if there's nothing, then there's no distinguish ability, or anything else. If any thing exists, it has properties which give it distinguish ability. It is those properties that are fundamental. Distinction itself is a conclusion, or result.

157 posted on 04/01/2007 2:32:31 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: sourcery
Reality has always existed.

I agree with that.

Its fundamental mode of operation is the distinction, such as the distinction between past, present and future.

So you are saying time is the proof of reality?

Thus there is change and transformation.

Is this change directed or happenstance?

158 posted on 04/01/2007 2:38:33 PM PDT by Tribune7 (A bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet)
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To: spunkets
Your logic does not apply to God. He was not created, so your number one is bad.

It's not my logic, but that of Rutles4Ever in post 141, who said "Anything that exists was created." I am simply demonstrating the logical contradiction between the assertion that "Anything that exists was created" and the assertion that "God exists."

You can, of course, adopt a different set of assertions than were stated by Rutles4Ever, such as "Anything except God that exists was created" and "God exists." Then there is no contradiction. But once you permit one exception to the rule that "anything that exists was created," it becomes much more difficult to justify the universality of that rule. If God is an exception, why not other things? Why not everything?

The empty set is a rational construction used to describe something.

As are all the terms in every statement anyone ever makes.

The empty set can not exist w/o someone to ponder it and in fact can not if there is nothing.

The empty set can exist whether anyone ponders it or not. Same as anything else. And nothing cannot exist universally, since 'nothing' is itself something. Absolute nothing is a logical contradiction, and its universal existence would be a clear example of a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction.

There are no distinct forms of nothing. Nothing is indistinguishable from itself.

Nothing is always distinct from whatever is not-nothing. That is intrinsic to what it is. It can only be defined as the negation of existence--which requires both that existence and negation exist.

159 posted on 04/01/2007 2:58:04 PM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: sourcery; Rutles4Ever
"It's not my logic, but that of Rutles4Ever in post 141, who said "Anything that exists was created.""

Oh, OK.

"You can, of course, adopt a different set of assertions than were stated by Rutles4Ever, such as "Anything except God that exists was created" and "God exists." Then there is no contradiction."

In order for anything to exist, there must be an underlying physics to support the existence. There can be no being w/o an underlying physics to support that being. That means that existance itself can't be created. Also, existence can not be created out of nothing.

"The empty set can exist whether anyone ponders it or not."

No. COncepts and rational constructions only exist, because of the machinery the underlying physics provides to support it's existence. W/o the physics and the machinery, there is nothing. Nothing is simply realized and contemplated, becausee of the machinery that supports it.

" nothing cannot exist universally, since 'nothing' is itself something."

If nothing exists, it is a universal. It means there is only nothing, and no existence can possibly arrise out of it. nothing != something The concept of nothing is something. It is a member of the set of concepts, which is a subset of existence.

"Nothing is always distinct from whatever is not-nothing. That is intrinsic to what it is. It can only be defined as the negation of existence--which requires both that existence and negation exist.

Negation is a logical operation. The concept of nothing is defined. It is not the result of any logical operation. The logical operation itself depends on the definitions.

160 posted on 04/01/2007 3:24:23 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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