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To: GraniteStateConservative
You cannot prove that there is not a Creator. Assuming the Big Bang theory (or any other universe-starting theory) is true, who created the matter that became the universe? Can anything create itself? Anything that exists was created. And anything created needs a being (or beings) that gives it motion. Simply saying, "well bad things/good people blah blah blah" doesn't cut it. If you agree that there is an order to the universe, to our solar system, to our planet, to our very DNA, then you have to agree that there is One who directed these things to their right order. And if there is a right order to things, then using things to their right order is the height of morality, which has been conveyed by God to man first by the Ten Commandments, and secondly by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If there is no right order, there is no God, and thus, by definition, no moral guidelines by which man should bother conducting himself. So, by merely obeying the law, you are expressing belief in God. Furthermor, man could not "order" his own biology. He could not "order" his own consciousness before his conception. This order is passed on and on and on through the birth parents, of which there are - logically - a first man and a first woman who began the human race. Now from whom did they receive their ordered being? It had to be from God. No one else could possibly provide it.

Really, without God, we really are just zombies. If that's the one thing you choose to believe in, your conflict is your own doing.

Since we have no rhyme or reason to bad people getting their just desserts in this life and none to good people having over-the-top bad things happen to them, there can be no expectation that things are different when we die.

What could be a more just dessert for bad people than ETERNAL punishment? You seem to want less than that.

Belief in God is all about hope, which is a selfish motivation-- although it's natural. Having hope makes us more comfortable. It's not grounded in reality, though. It's a sort of crutch to get through the day. Jessica's family knows now what Jessica discovered inside a trash bag-- there is no hope. It's not real.

That's strange. Hope is a selfish motivation? Greed and lust and jealousy and envy and pride are all selfish motivation, but how did you come up with hope as a selfish motivation? It IS possible to love your enemies, and it IS possible to have hopes for them when you know you will receive nothing in return.

If Jessica is in heaven, what greater hope can there be? Projecting your atheistic views on Jessica Lunsford is mighty selfish on your own part, don'tcha think? It gives you greater validation of your own views to use her terrible death as a crutch for your despair.

141 posted on 03/31/2007 11:09:02 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Rutles4Ever
You cannot prove that there is not a Creator. Assuming the Big Bang theory (or any other universe-starting theory) is true, who created the matter that became the universe? Can anything create itself? Anything that exists was created.
  1. You can't prove there is one.
  2. Existence is, and always has been. There is no creation, only change and transformation.
  3. Nothing can create itself. The fundamental principle of existence is the distinction. In order for there to be nothing, there must be a distinction between nothing and not-nothing. But a distinction is different than nothing, and so Nothing is not a possible state of existence globally (although it is possible locally.)
  4. If anything that exists was created, then God was created, since he also exists. Of course, that raises the question, "Who created God?" And whatever answer is given to that question is subject to the same question, "Who created that?" There is no transitive closure to that sequence of questions and answers--which is why reality must be eternal.

142 posted on 04/01/2007 12:31:15 AM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: Rutles4Ever
You cannot prove that there is not a Creator. Assuming the Big Bang theory (or any other universe-starting theory) is true, who created the matter that became the universe? Can anything create itself? Anything that exists was created. And anything created needs a being (or beings) that gives it motion.

You believe that God didn't need a creator, that he created himself.

Simply saying, "well bad things/good people blah blah blah" doesn't cut it. If you agree that there is an order to the universe, to our solar system, to our planet, to our very DNA, then you have to agree that there is One who directed these things to their right order.

You're saying that it's impossible for the universe to have things of advanced structure randomly, but you believe that a creator has/had advanced structure-- far more advanced than anything we are aware of, if you're right-- randomly and out of nothing. Human DNA's existence is much more probable than God DNA (or whatever is his structure).

If there is no right order, there is no God, and thus, by definition, no moral guidelines by which man should bother conducting himself.

Basic golden rule morality is necessary for creating a society (keeping the social contract) and it's actually a system that is beneficial to the person and not just to others-- as it's sort of an insurance policy (be good to others, treat them the way you want to be treated in case you need to be treated nicely because you're in a bind). It's symbiotic. These relationships are found in nature, and those organisms don't believe in God.

What could be a more just dessert for bad people than ETERNAL punishment? You seem to want less than that.

My point was that people want to believe that bad people will be tortured forever, but the reason for believing that is because of a desire and not reason or any facts. Just because you want something to be true, that isn't evidence that it is true. People are just unhappy with the truth sometimes. The universe doesn't owe us justice or anything. In fact, the evidence suggests that since the known world operates in such a way that things we wished wouldn't happen, do in fact happen, that we should not assume that things are different in some other life created by the same entity. Why would the rules be different? If you believe in the universe having perfect order, that would be order. As an aside, the universe and the Earth and humans have many flaws-- which would seem to trim away evidence for any intelligent design.

That's strange. Hope is a selfish motivation? Greed and lust and jealousy and envy and pride are all selfish motivation, but how did you come up with hope as a selfish motivation? It IS possible to love your enemies, and it IS possible to have hopes for them when you know you will receive nothing in return.

What I meant is that, like the kid who believes in Santa Claus because he wants the presents on Christmas morning (which is a reason for belief based on selfishness and not on reason or evidence), the same applies to hope. Hope is something that makes us feel good, like a drug. People don't want to give up that drug because they like how they feel when they use it. It doesn't mean that using that drug is the best course of action. It's easy to believe in hope because it gives you a high.

If Jessica is in heaven, what greater hope can there be? Projecting your atheistic views on Jessica Lunsford is mighty selfish on your own part, don'tcha think? It gives you greater validation of your own views to use her terrible death as a crutch for your despair.

If God wanted Jessica dead, he could have used a softer touch. He killed a fly with a sledgehammer. I'm not at all in despair, actually. I'm a very happy and upbeat person.

143 posted on 04/01/2007 6:49:08 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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