University to reconsider Confederate statues on campus

CNN ^ | 12/28/06

[peggybac]

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- The new president of the University of Texas says he will appoint a panel to decide what to do with four bronze statues on the Austin campus that honor confederate leaders and have drawn complaints for several years. William Powers Jr., who took over as president this month, said the advisory committee would look into concerns about the statues, which include likenesses of Jefferson Davis, president of the Confederate States, and Gen. Robert E. Lee. "A lot of students, and especially minority students, have raised concerns. And those are understandable and legitimate concerns. On the other hand, the statues have been here for a long time, and that's something we have to take into account as well," Powers said in Wednesday's Austin American-Statesman. The university's previous president, Larry Faulkner, wrote an open letter to the campus more than two years ago saying the statues convey "institutional nostalgia" for the Confederacy and its values. "Most who receive that message are repelled," Faulkner wrote. Statuary on the Austin campus has grown more diverse over the years, partly as a result of student-led efforts. A student fee raised funds to install a statue of civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. in 1999. Also in the works are statues of Hispanic labor leader Cesar Chavez and Barbara Jordan, the first black woman from the South elected to Congress.

[vaudine]

The students do not have to concentrate on a bunch of old dead guys instead of
their studies. The fact is that Jefferson Davis was MUCH more than the leader of the Confederacy and Robert E. Lee was MUCH more than the leader of the Confederate army. A lot could be learned about human nature, integrity, love of country, statesmanship and more by studying the lives and times of these men.

Jefferson Davis was a US rep., Senator, and as Secretary of War a few years before the Civil War, he modernized the US Army--enabling them to be superior in equipment to the South. Robert E. Lee was NOT a rich slave owner--his father "Light Horse Harry Lee" went through the wealth of his two wives and managed to die penniless, leaving his widow and Robert poor and in debt. Lee was asked to lead the US Army but declined because of his ties to Virginia, not because of his love of slavery.

Modern students have NO concept of the belief and devotion to states' rights the people of that time had. The loss of historical truthes and traditions has left a vacuum into which is being sucked a load of PC nothingness, lack of respect for anything and anyone that doesn't look/feel like the PCers think it should, and a rootless hysteria equal to the bookburners of yesteryear.

Really, it is about victimhood and the right to whine until everything that has gone before, historically, is wiped out in the sacred name of PC.

vaudine

[rustbucket]

The shortage of food and supplies is a popular myth. The fact of the matter is that the confederacy never suffered from a lack of food, and for the most part sufficient supplies were available. What it did suffer from was a poor transportation network and an inept commissary department, headed, as might be expected, by a friend of Jefferson Davis.

There is some truth in what you say, but the effect on the hungry person is the same whether there is insufficient food or a poorly functioning transportation system that can't get the food to him.

Here's one description of what was going on [Link]:

Shortages of food--probably the result of inadequate distribution systems rather than actual absolute shortfalls--plagued many soldiers' wives and children. Cloth production was imperiled both by absence of raw materials and by the Confederacy's inability to manufacture the cotton cards essential for home clothing manufacture. A Georgia grand jury proclaimed in August 1862, "We are grieved and appalled at the distress which threatens our people especially the widows and orphans and wives and children of our poor soldiers." An official in Alabama noted that in parts of the state citizens were actually dying of starvation.

… In some areas of North Carolina, for example, as many as 40% of white women received government support to relieve hunger and deprivation.

… Women, too, became embroiled in the controversy --most notably in bread riots that erupted in Richmond and locations across the Confederacy in 1863 and later. An eloquent but barely educated North Carolina woman named Nancy Mangum wrote feelingly to Governor Zebulon Vance in 1863: "I have threatened for some time to write you a letter--a crowd of we poor women went to Greensborough yesterday for something to eat as we had not a mouthful meat nor bread--what did they do but put us in jail--we women will write for our husbands to come home and help us."

There were 3,000 ladies in the 1863 Richmond bread riot. Let's look for a minute at how the war affected the transportation system:

One of the greatest calamities which confronted Southerners was the havoc wrought on the transportation system. Roads were impassable or nonexistent, and bridges were destroyed or washed away. The important river traffic was at a standstill: levees were broken, channels were blocked, the few steamboats which had not been captured or destroyed were in a state of disrepair, wharves had decayed or were missing, and trained personnel were dead or dispersed. Horses, mules, oxen, carriages, wagons, and carts had nearly all fallen prey at one time or another to the contending armies. The railroads were paralyzed, with most of the companies bankrupt. These lines had been the special target of the enemy. On one stretch of 114 miles in Alabama, "every bridge and trestle was destroyed, cross-ties rotten, buildings burned, water-tanks gone, ditches filled up, and tracks grown up in weeds and bushes." Sherman's men had destroyed all railroad equipment within reach -- 136 of 281 miles of the Central of Georgia, alone -- and added the novelty of twisting heated rails around trees. In Alabama nearly all of its 800 miles of railway was useless. One Mississippi line reported fit for use, though damaged, a total of one locomotive, two second-class passenger cars, one first-class passenger car, one baggage car, one provision car, two stock cars, and two flat cars. Communication centers like Columbia and Atlanta were in ruins; shops and foundries were wrecked or in disrepair. Even those areas bypassed by battle had been pirated for equipment needed on the battlefront, and the wear and tear of wartime usage without adequate repairs or replacements reduced all to a state of disintegration. Not for a generation were the railroads properly restored, and then largely by Northern capital. [Link] (It's Wikipedia, I know, but the above quote is out of a book they cite.)

Now lets look at what Northern troops did to the local food supply:

South Carolina: After a comment upon these outrages, the writer gives a sketch of the devastation occasioned on the route taken by the enemy [the Yanks, who else], some portion of which we copy:

"Leaving our town, the enemy took their line of march on the State road, leading to Blackstock's, South Carolina. On the route, their road can be easily distinguished by tall chimneys, standing solitary and alone, and blackened embers, as it were, laying at their feet. --Every fine residence, all corn cribs, smoke-houses, cotton-gins — all that could give comfort to man — were committed to the flames; dead animals — horses, mules, cows, calves and hogs — slain by the enemy, are scattered along the road to Blackstock's.

"In one place we counted fourteen fine milch cows, with their young, lying in the space of a half-acre field, having been shot. To show with what brutality they even treated dumb creatures, we discovered two calves hung with telegraph wire, and left in that position to die of utter starvation. Others again had wire ingeniously wound around the leg and neck in such a position that, in walking, the jagged end of the wire would penetrate the throat; and so they died by slow torture. [Source: The Daily Dispatch, Richmond, Virginia, January 24, 1865]

Georgia: In their route they [Sherman's troops] destroyed, as far as possible, all mills, cribs, and carried off all stock, provisions, and negroes, and when their horses gave out they shot them. At Canton they killed over 100. ... All along their route the road was strewn with dead horses, Farmers having devoted a large share of their attention to syrup making, there is a large quantity of cotton ungathered in the field, which was left by Federals, but there is not a horse or ox in the country, hence the saving of corn will be a difficult matter.

On going to McCradle's place he [a Georgia legislator] found his fine house and ginhouse burned, every horse and mule gone, and in his lot 100 dead horses, that looked like good stock, that were evidently killed to deprive the planters of them.

...No farm on the road to the place, and as far as we hear from toward Atlanta, escaped their brutal ravages. They ravaged the country below there to the Oconee River. The roads were strewn with the debris of their progress. Dead horses, cows, sheep, hogs, chicken, corn, wheat, cotton, books, paper, broken vessels, coffee mills, and fragments of nearly every species of property strewed the wayside.

...They gutted every store, and plundered more or less of everything. ... Many families have not a pound of meat or peck of meal or flour. [Source: The Daily Picayune of New Orleans]

Virginia: The full mobilization of Augusta County [Virginia] in 1864 left little room for further expansion of the war effort. According to one woman in February 1864 the only white men left were older farmers who she predicted would not join the army even if drafted. "I say it seams starvation will end it anyhow," she wrote, "there is a number of farms that there is not a man on. if the farms are stopped I think the war must stop. they cant fight without bread." She concluded, "I think the southern confederacy has gone nearly up the spout." [Link]

[Colonel Kangaroo]

Good work by Sherman, Grant, Sheridan and our Union army. The ruthlessness they used to end the bloodshed quickly is only exceeded by the magniminity they showed in victory.

[rustbucket]

Good work by Sherman, Grant, Sheridan and our Union army. The ruthlessness they used to end the bloodshed quickly is only exceeded by the magniminity they showed in victory.

Is that you Genghis Kerry?

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

The Union army did not behave close to the Mongols. But like Charleston, war is rough. Reading of Civil Wars throughout history, I don't recall any where the victors behaved with such kindness and forbearance towards the vanquished as the United States did toward its defeated rebellion.

I believe that most Dixie whining about Sherman over the years was caused by soreloserism and embarrassment over the poor showing of the CSA is the rebellion.

[rustbucket]

The Union army did not behave close to the Mongols. But like Charleston, war is rough. Reading of Civil Wars throughout history, I don't recall any where the victors behaved with such kindness and forbearance towards the vanquished as the United States did toward its defeated rebellion.

Some of my wife's grandparents saw Sherman's troops come through their Georgia farms when they were young. Their children, my wife's parents, hated Sherman with an absolute passion that shocked me.

When you read about Sherman's troops suspending people by ropes until they almost choked to death in order to find out where their valuables were, taking prized possessions, leaving families without food, burning down their home, etc., perhaps you will understand better. Such behavior may have indeed helped to win the war, but it left its victims hating the North.

I believe that most Dixie whining about Sherman over the years was caused by soreloserism and embarrassment over the poor showing of the CSA is the rebellion.

You frequently talk about the bad behavior of Confederates toward the Union sympathizers in East Tennessee. They were indeed mistreated. Do your comments constitute Union whining?

In your discussions about East Tennessee, you forget to mention mistreatment of Confederate sympathizers by the East Tennessee Union folk after the Union troops gained the ascendancy in East Tennessee.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

It is all unfortunate on both sides. My mention of the confederate mistreatment of southerners is to disprove any moral superiority of the reb cause and to try to deflate what I see as the pretensions and myths of the CSA, but I don't mean top say that the Union conduct was perfect either.

But when war came, wickedness and suffering were released on the land. It comes down to who lit the match to start the holocaust, and legality of secession, I think it's clear was no impairment of the liberty of the southern people that warranted a dissolving of an old and good union.

[TexConfederate1861]

What do you expect in "Moscow on the Colorado"....LOL

[Colonel Kangaroo]

How can you Texans endure the presence of UTA? I know there's generally a difference in outlook between the public ivory towers and the states which support them, but I don't think the gap is anywhere wider than in Texas.

[rustbucket]

It comes down to who lit the match to start the holocaust, and legality of secession, I think it's clear was no impairment of the liberty of the southern people that warranted a dissolving of an old and good union.

We reach opposite conclusions. What is clear to you, is not clear to me. Hopefully, we history buffs can respectfully disagree.

[TexConfederate1861]

Well, I can't stand it, but it is my alma mater...

[higgmeister]

Cesar Chavez and Barbara Jordan

Yes, just keep those salami slices coming.

Salami - Salami - Baloney!

[rustbucket]

My mention of the confederate mistreatment of southerners is to disprove any moral superiority of the reb cause ...

By that logic, if I document mistreatment of Northerners and/or Southerners by Lincoln and the Feds, I thereby disprove any moral superiority of the Northern cause?

[SJackson]

Sam Houston owned slaves. Stephen Austin's family owned slaves, and he leased them at his mine in Missouri.

Time for Texas to start renaming cities.

[TexConfederate1861]

Amen...A well thought response.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

My mention of the confederate mistreatment of southerners is to disprove any moral superiority of the reb cause ...

By that logic, if I document mistreatment of Northerners and/or Southerners by Lincoln and the Feds, I thereby disprove any moral superiority of the Northern cause?

Our side doesn't need to claim moral perfection. We freed the slaves and broke the power of the aristocracy built on human bondage. I truly believe good men were drawn into service of the CSA, but I also believe that the root cause of the CSA was rotten.

[rustbucket]

Our side doesn't need to claim moral perfection. We freed the slaves and broke the power of the aristocracy built on human bondage. I truly believe good men were drawn into service of the CSA, but I also believe that the root cause of the CSA was rotten.

Freeing slaves was good. Thieving, burning homes, bombarding civilians, preventing people from voting, suppressing free speech, thwarting civil law, sectional aggrandizement, violating the Constitution, and forcing states to stay in a union their people didn't want to stay in and weren't required by the Constitution to stay in were bad. That is not to say the South was perfect either. It wasn't.

[rustbucket]

Maybe we can both laugh at the French technology of the time:

Iron-plated vessels are not without serious inconveniences, The famous French vessel La Glorie has just laid up in dry dock, when it was found that the contact of the copper lining and the submerged iron plates had established a galvanic current which produced the effect of a voltaic pile, and was completely ruining the armor of the vessel below the water line; the hull was covered by millions of mollusks, among which was a species of shell fish hitherto unknown, and all the wine in the hold was turned into vinegar. [Source: The Daily Picayune, Feb. 20, 1863, of occupied New Orleans]

Or about some of the insanity that happens during war:

Several women ... were arrested yesterday for waving handkerchiefs, etc., at the Confederate prisoners when they went on board the steamer Empire Parish ... [Source: The Daily Picayune, Feb. 22, 1863, of occupied New Orleans]

Might make sense, I guess, depending on what the "etc." was that they were waving. A judge later set the ladies free.

[Polybius]

I have discussed this at length with many FRiends here and I still don't get what the use of praising people who lost a war is about.

Some people do get it.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, ...... and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." ......... Theodore Roosevelt

USS Tecumseh (SSBN-628)

USS Geronimo (ATR-135)

USS Osceola, Union ironclad

Vietnam Vet

[napscoordinator]

Thank you for your post. I found it stunningly shocking because I never really considered Vietnam a failure. I would never put down a Vietnam Vet for any reason. I will think about the Vietnam Vet the same as the Confederate Vet. I never put the two together and feel ashamed that I didn't look at it the same way. I COMPLETELY ignored the fact that the Confederates were American...How stupid is that on my part! I will never EVER write another negative post about conferate soldiers again. Even though it was not exactly writing against the soldiers, it still gave the impression of doing it. In the million of posts that I have received from various Confederate posts and threads nobody every indirectly or directly posted the reality to me before. I can't even begin to thank you for waking my stupid mind up!!!!!!!!!