Europe Is Growing Skeptical Of Dialogue With Muslims (excellent article)

The NY Sun ^ | 10/6/2006 | YOUSSEF IBRAHIM

[Dark Skies]

After years of dithering over political correctness with Muslims and Islam, Europe is waking up to a different morning.

A three-week tour of Italy, France, and Britain last month was enough for me to conclude that Western Europeans have moved way beyond dialogue. Confrontation, indeed even provocation, is their preferred approach to the Muslims in their midst.

Long before Pope Benedict XVI's scathing comments in mid-September on the fallacy of phony Muslim-Christian dialogue, signs of hardening European views toward current Islamic values were plentiful on the Continent

[alnitak]

Wouldn't be surprised if he had already decided to stand down at the next election. Politicians are notable for making outspoken statements *after* they have nothing to lose.

[Dark Skies]

Yeah, I thought it was hopeful. The author is...

an Egyptian-born American reporter serving for twenty-four years as a senior Middle East regional correspondent for The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal...

Source: http://www.fandy.us/experts/youssef-ibrahim.html

[rogernz]

here is a bio of the author...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/contributors/bio.php?nick=youssef-m-ibrahim&name=Youssef+M.+Ibrahim

I'd say this guy is a mozzie but the dubai bunch aren't your usual type. they are mostly interested in making money. If any of you are familiar with the 'Les Camps de Saints' - The Camp of the Saints - read up about it. one of the main defenders of the europeans was an indian. Raspail deliberately made this point that some of them can be our allies.

[Mac1]

"I have seen many posts on FR bemoaning the 'inevitable' Islamic takeover of Western Europe. I don't see it this way."

Neither do I. 2-3% of the population IMO is not going to take over the country anytime soon. What I do see, are communities for whom the law doesn't apply except when it benefits them for example welfare and this I find particularly annoying.

[rogernz]

"II see is a violent confrontation with Islam, one which the Muslims will lose. Out of the ashes will emerge a more unified Europe with the clear understanding that Islam is not compatible with Western democracies, and immigration policies will reflect that obvious fact."

I fear that just as much as the mozzies taking over - another hitler could just as easily emerge.

[starbase]

It was telling, for example, to see how Europeans greeted the naïve commentary that surfaced in America's National Intelligence Estimate, titled "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States." The NIE told bemused Europeans, among other things, that "greater pluralism and more responsive political systems in Muslim majority nations would alleviate some of the grievances jihadists exploit."

Situated closer than America to that rough neighborhood called the Middle East, Europeans reacted by noting that the chances for "greater pluralism" in any Muslim country are about as plausible as hell freezing over.

This is such pathetic role reversal. I don't know who this Youssef Ibrahim clown is, but to attempt to paint the US (victims of 9/11) as naive to the Islamic murderer's threats, while wily, swift Euros are sure 'nough right on top of it, is to brand himself as a hypocritical socialist fool, IMO.

[Jezebelle]

No, because we don't have the mental attitude of the leftist Europeans who allowed themselves to be overtaken by a Trojan Horse. It isn't inevitable that the moosies will take over this country. It isn't even remotely possible. I doubt the Brits or the Dutch will allow it to happen in their homeland, either. The French, Spanish and some others will. They are the frogs in the pot who too late came to realize the heat was gradually being turned up into the boil it is for them now.

[expatpat]

You Europhobes still hold onto your belief that Europe can't do another racial cleansing? You don't realize that there is a brutal beast under that veneer of politeness? Kipling knew his countrymen well:

Oh, my country, bless the training that from cot to castle runs
The pitfall of the stranger but the bulwark of thy sons
Measured speech and ordered action, sluggish soul and un perturbed,
Till we wake our Island-Devil-nowise cool for being curbed!

When the heir of all the ages "has the honour to remain,"
When he will not hear an insult, though men make it ne'er so plain,
When his lips are schooled to meekness, when his back is bowed to blows
Well the keen aas-vogels know it-well the waiting jackal knows.

Build on the flanks of Etna where the sullen smoke-puffs float
Or bathe in tropic waters where the lean fin dogs the boat
Cock the gun that is not loaded, cook the frozen dynamite
But oh, beware my Country, when my Country grows polite!

[Jezebelle]

Yeah, the Poles will make it. So will the Dutch and the Brits. But I disagree with you about the Germans. France and Spain are lost causes. Hell, Spain was never in the game in the first place - always been a cesspool ripe for takeover by a violent horde.

[Dark Skies]

You make some valid points, but the following is naive and stupid IMO...

"...greater pluralism and more responsive political systems in Muslim majority nations would alleviate some of the grievances jihadists exploit."

[gaijin]

I don't think they're confrontation. Confrontation is where you go to a person or representatives of a group. And after you initiate contact, you point out a problem. And then you ask for a remedy.

I think we should leave all that aside:

I think we shouldn't rely on words at all. To the best of my knowledge, Europe (and the USA) is not compelled to accept muslim immigrants, and that because of that we should turn them away in EVERY case.

This is totally apart from the notion that there are nice muslims --I am completely sure of that, and I don't need to guess because I KNOW that from personal experience.

And the muslim illegals should be forcibly deported. And we should simply disregard that we've even been asked to engage in discourse at all, and do the above because we CAN do the above.

[vimto]

Just a draft...

[Dark Skies]

The French, Spanish and some others will...

If the French take a hard turn to the right and elect Sarkozy as Germany did Merkel, I think we may some big changes in France.

[gaijin]

I agree with you totally about the booze, porno and swine.

Those things are not illegal, and because of that, they should be put before muslims at every turn possible.

[starbase]

You make some valid points, but the following is naive and stupid IMO...

["...greater pluralism and more responsive political systems in Muslim majority nations would alleviate some of the grievances jihadists exploit."]

And who owns this assertion? I certainly never said it.

[vimto]

Very sensible - we have to use real politics not fanciful rhetoric.

[Dark Skies]

Didn't intend to imply that statement was your...it was make by the NIE, of course.

[vimto]

Too true - man is not civilized. I agree. I wish it were not so. But we msut live in the real world.

[starbase]

Didn't intend to imply that statement was your...it was make by the NIE, of course.

Ah, I see! ;-)

[Dark Skies]

lol...good work. I recognized the characters as yours before I saw your name.