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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | June 22, 2006 1:00 a.m. Eastern

Posted on 06/22/2006 1:28:41 PM PDT by Tim Long

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To: Coyoteman

Lots of problems w/ that link.

If you follow the link you provided, you can see that the tree-rings don't line up very well at all. They are only marginally comparable. Then follow the link to the page that discusses the 'extension' process where pieces laying around, from peat bogs and old buildings are used and you get a much better idea of how unreliable tree-ring dating really is. There is at least as much variability and human interpretation in tree-ring dating as in anything else.

Finally, how was C14 dating modified based on tree-ring chronologies? Any at all?


761 posted on 07/05/2006 8:08:08 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
If you follow the link you provided, you can see that the tree-rings don't line up very well at all. They are only marginally comparable. Then follow the link to the page that discusses the 'extension' process where pieces laying around, from peat bogs and old buildings are used and you get a much better idea of how unreliable tree-ring dating really is. There is at least as much variability and human interpretation in tree-ring dating as in anything else.

Finally, how was C14 dating modified based on tree-ring chronologies? Any at all?

Tree ring dating is normally done using standing dead bristlecone pines from the White Mountains of southeastern California.

By dating the rings in 10-year increments you establish a calibration curve.

762 posted on 07/05/2006 8:13:59 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Dimensio

Nope. You would just assume that the related species 'lost' that particular gene.

Evolution is unfalsifiable since the 'fact' that it occurred is assumed 'a priori'.


763 posted on 07/05/2006 8:17:51 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: Coyoteman

Doesn't matter where it occurs.

Points were, the 'extension' process and human interpretation.

Since you did not address those points, I assume that you recognize they are fatal to the claim.


764 posted on 07/05/2006 8:19:59 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: Coyoteman

Oh yeah, and the point about whether C14 was modified as the result of this 'sychronization' w/ tree-rings.

Where is that process so that we can see where the variability lies? Could be all over the board, like the 'geologic column'.


765 posted on 07/05/2006 8:21:41 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
That's how unfalsifiability works. If the genes are the same, they are 'highly conserved'. If they are not the same, they aren't 'highly conserved'.

Ooops! Reading comprehension again. They aren't "the same". They're just less different than the typical genes are (between species with that degree of evolutionary relationship).

766 posted on 07/05/2006 8:23:03 AM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Tim Long

bookmark


767 posted on 07/05/2006 8:25:58 AM PDT by RobFromGa
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To: GourmetDan
You would just assume that the related species 'lost' that particular gene.

You do not show that evolution is non-falsifiable by making presumptious pronouncements.

Evolution is unfalsifiable since the 'fact' that it occurred is assumed 'a priori'.

Incorrect. Evolution is concluded from observations, and further reaffirmed by the lack of defined contradictory observations, such as precambrian rabbit fossils or transposons present in two related species but absent in another.
768 posted on 07/05/2006 8:27:20 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: GourmetDan
I am not going to discuss this with you any longer.

You seem to want to make radiocarbon dating into some kind of second-rate guesswork. That is not accurate.

I have been working with radiocarbon dates for some 25 years, and know a bit about the process. I'll trust the professionals I work with and the study I have done.

Bye.

769 posted on 07/05/2006 8:28:03 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Onelifetogive
Most of my doubts about Evolution come from the fact that its supporters are terrified that someone may scientifically consider another alternative.

Such as......?

The only alternative I hear is Creationism or the Theory that the Earth is riding on the back of a huge turtle, both of which are "matters of faith".

770 posted on 07/05/2006 8:29:54 AM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: Hendrix
The bottom line is that scientific theories are often wrong and most of science is junk science, including the theory of evolution and global warming.

Global warming is not junk science. It is a fact. What is at issue is the WHY. I believe the world is warming because of the natural cycle of the sun - not because of man's activity. But to say the climate is not getting warmer is like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand.

The ice sheet at the North Pole has been growing thinner over the past 20 years. That is a fact. The REASON it is growing thinner is what is open to debate.

771 posted on 07/05/2006 8:34:02 AM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: Stultis

Even worse.

If the genes are 'less different' than typical, then they are 'highly conserved'. If more different, then they aren't 'highly conserved'.

Don't see how this helps your position.


772 posted on 07/06/2006 7:50:52 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: Dimensio

Except that the observations (aka facts) are also consistent w/ a created biology that is in decline.

Therefore the 'evolutionary' interpretation has no unique basis and is not as strong as adherents would propose.

You are aware that fossil reworking and overthrusting are invoked to explain away out-of-order fossils.

Of course you are.


773 posted on 07/06/2006 7:53:11 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: Coyoteman

Yeah, for the guy who thinks that labs are 'measuring dates' rather than extrapolating C14 data, it's probably best that you drop the subject.


774 posted on 07/06/2006 7:54:27 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
Except that the observations (aka facts) are also consistent w/ a created biology that is in decline.

How so? What observations of biology lead to the conclusion of creation and decline?
775 posted on 07/06/2006 8:16:13 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio

Speciation, genetic load, sexual reproduction, deleterious mutation, DNA error-correction schemes, diploid genetic structure and triplet-codon coding structure.

All either evidence of decline or features designed to resist decline.

In the case of sexual reproduction, DNA error-correction schemes, diploid genetic structure and triplet-codon coding; these all significantly *slow* the possibility of any putative 'evolution' and fall heavily on the side of conserving existing information.

The data says life was created. Evolution is the result of a faulty first-premise called 'commitment to naturalism'.

Now, naturalism is fine if you are dealing in the technical areas of science. It does not work once you cross over into the metaphysical realm. Evolution is metaphysical naturalism and is invalid.


776 posted on 07/06/2006 8:32:28 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
Speciation, genetic load, sexual reproduction, deleterious mutation, DNA error-correction schemes, diploid genetic structure and triplet-codon coding structure.

All either evidence of decline or features designed to resist decline.

How have you determined that decline resistance is "designed"?
777 posted on 07/06/2006 9:45:42 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: GourmetDan
Don't see how this helps your position.

Well, for one thing, even if a gene is highly conserved, you can still measure evolutionary relationships independently of that by using the "third base pair wiggle". (In most cases the third base pair in a DNA codon is redundant in terms of coding the appropriate amino acid in the resulting protein, so changes in it are relatively unconstrained.)

In any case, this variability in gene evolution rates helps in many ways.

For instance it generates more testable predictions for evolution. If we find a gene that's highly conserved in both fish and humans, for instance, it should also be highly conserved in any animal more closely related to humans that fish are, for instance chickens. Similarly if a gene is NOT conserved in both chickens and humans, then it should also not be conserved in fish. Finally humans and chickens should share numerically more conserved genes than either does with fish. (All these predictions appear to have borne out, btw, in the research described in the article!)

Even better, these deductions from evolution (common descent) provide useful information for other areas of biology. If evolution (common descent) is true, and if genes, as deduced by comparisons between species on the assumption of common descent, evolve at different rates, THEN THERE MUST BE A REASON. (If "goddidit" then no reason is necessary, and therefore inferences from such reasons or mechanisms are unavailable.)

So if we find genes that vary very little across wide phylogenetic distances, then the functions of the proteins coded by such genes must also be highly constrained visa vis their primary sequence (the linear sequence of amino acids). This information can very useful in analyzing the functions of such proteins, and in analyzing the metabolic functions they're part of.

Many, many more inferences are possible. For instance say we find a gene that is very similar among almost all vertebrates, except say Birds. Again, if common descent is true then there must be some reason for this. This automatically clues us in that the biological process associated with this gene must be different somehow in birds. It's either become less constrained or there has been a functional shift. (And then we can look at comparisons within birds to see which of those explanations is more likely.)

778 posted on 07/06/2006 10:01:12 AM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: GourmetDan
Should have added that the same sort of evolutionary analysis is also helpful when applied within genes. In other words there are often regions within genes that are more, or less, highly conserved. This will tend to indicate what the are most functionally important parts of the resultant protein.
779 posted on 07/06/2006 11:30:59 AM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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pingin' myself


780 posted on 07/06/2006 12:05:22 PM PDT by 2nsdammit (By definition it's hard to get suicide bombers with experience.)
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