Homo No Mo’? A report from the June 10 Love Won Out conference.

National Review Online ^ | June 15, 2006 | Eve Tushnet

[LowOiL]

Thank you for sharing your insights Soulman. I do pray God keeps you in good standing.

My question to you, is how (if any) pornography played a role in your turn to homosexuality. Much venom on the threads of such subjects with little real life experiences (that anyone would admit at least) leave me wondering. I have always been under the conclusion that pornography does have a role in leading men/women astray. As with the father figures in now days society being absence (and even those left are not always true fathers as Jesus means them to be)..

Will please take a few minutes of your time and help me understand if pornography did have an influence on you. I know this will be a individual testimony and not all inclusive, but I am curious.

I will go first

My personal testimony is (as a young 10y/o) kid we (neighbor boys) found a stash of someones nudie comics and pictures (light porn by todays standards). Masturbation age comes around and I as a lot of kids did my fair share of lusting/sinning. Normal kid stuff, but at a young age, I know it was not right. Grew older, the addiction warranted going across the state lines to buy girly mags. I got a little older (early/mid 20's) and on my own, and discovered it took more to get the same effect. Hard porn... Fortunately my Jesus planted a seed in my heart that it was wrong. So basically after being put on conviction, I stopped doing it. Met a sweet beautiful Christian (whom I had prayed for years for the Lord to invite into my life) and got married (12 years ago). For the most part I have gave up pornography of all types (rededicated myself to the Lord, backsliden) , but still those memories that I took years to jam into my head are still there though faded with time. (There is a Bible verse about this somewhere).

So as a personal testimony I know porn is addictive. So, in basis I want to know if you went the same route in your life and if a porn addiction manufested into homosexuality.

I know this is very personal, if you had rather FR me, that is fine. If you had rather not respond, that is fine also. BTW.. that other fellow was just plain rude IMHO .... I for one appreciate your frankness in this matter.

I am proud that most of the posters on this thread have gave very valuable and thought out responces/input.

BTW... my Mother in Law just died tonight, so I may not be able to respond very fast in the next few days. But I don look forward to your responce. Please pray for us, my wife is quite heartbroken.

[little jeremiah]

Did you read the link I posted in comment #68? There is a tremendous amount of information there, with numerous links, many are first hand accounts of former homosexuals. There's a wealth of information there. If you read it with an open mind, you will see that homosexuality is not inborn and immutable and many have left the "gay" life behind, just as many former alcoholics or drug addicts are now clean and sober.

[SoulMan]

I have come to a conclusion about people: They don't change. They can TRY to change; they can abstain from behavior; they can make cosmetic alterations. But what they ARE, inside, doesn't change. When people point out various seismic changes in people due to religious experience, I point out that they are really revealing something which was in them all along--maybe not a belief in God but an intense NEED for a belief in God, for example.

WARNING TO ALL: THIS POST CONTAINS SOME PERSONAL, GRAPHIC CONTENT, NECESSARY TO MAKE MY ARGUMENT

Darkwolf, the issue of whether people really do change is important to me and this is something that I did study in my journey out of homosexuality.

There is a substantial body of scientific research which shows that the human mind can literally "rewire itself", -- create new neural pathways (the circuits that nerves use to communicate in the brain). These studies are the biological and scientific evidence of the existence of human change. There is evidence (derived from studies with stroke patients) that this "neurological rewiring" takes place throughout adult life, and not just during childhood. These independent, empirical scientific studies (not biased toward religious belief of any kind) are documented in the book The Mind and Brain by Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz and Sharon Begley published in 2002 by ReganBooks and available at your local bookstore.

Dr. Schwartz's work had and continues to have a tremendous influence on my life. If you read his work, it might challenge your ideas about human change. He did his major work with people who suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder (another anxiety related disorder). He showed that people with obsessive compulsive can use cognitive havavioral therapy to alter their brain chemistry. (He used MRI scans to demonstrate altered brain chemistry). He also makes a purely scientific, empirical argument for the existence of a free will.

After reading Dr. Schwartz's work, I began to understand the changes that were taking place within me.

Darkwolf, try at least to understand this: I do not even think in terms of changing my "sexual orientation." That is an abstract concept, a pursely social construct and not really useful for me. I think of changing specific behaviors and thought patterns.

For example, my ability to obtain and maintain an erection when I am with my girlfriend is increasing. I also consider my cognitive approach to the stresses of daily life.

I used to revert to homosexual fantasy and masturbation in periods of stress and anxiety. I used to ejaculate to homosexual fantasy as much as three times a day. I am now able to withstand stress and anxiety with resorting to homosexual fantasy and masturbation. I cannot even recall my last homosexual fantasy. I am not sure if I am even CAPABLE at this point of ejaculating to a homosexual fantasy because it has been so long. This is a specific change and I believe circuits in my brain are literally rewiring themselves.

Darkwolf, the subject of change is an important one and I am sticking my neck out here by revealing some very personal information. I am trusting you to respect the personal nature of the information I am sharing.

I did not ping you because I want to "somehow win you over." I had mentioned you in my post and wanted to alert you to it, to give you an opportunity to respond as a courtesy. I am not trying to win you over, but answering your challenges helps me to understand my own experiences.

[SoulMan]

Thanks for your kind words. I want say first that your thoughtful and humble approach is appreciated and you have my respect. I reveal some very personal information here and getting a post like yours makes me feel that it is worthwhile. Other people could learn from your open minded and generous way of writing.

I want to say second that I have to GO TO WORK. There is a lot to talk about here and I will get back to you.

[The Red Zone]

Faith plus an aspirin has helped more people get over headaches than faith alone.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Personal guilt for sin depends on consent. If a man willingly entertains lustful thoughts, fantasies, desires for another man, or a female porn star, or his neighbor's wife, or a child, that's a sin. If the thought comes upon him and he doesn't reject and resist it, it's a sin. If the thought comes upon him and he DOES reject and resist it, it's a temptation.

In addition to that, if the temptation is for something perverted--- like anal intercourse or child sex--- then it's also disordered (by definition.) A man could be a good Christian involved in a heroic struggle against homosexual temptation, even involved in an Exodus-type recovery program, and be accurately described as (still) suffering from a sexual disorder.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Faith plus an aspirin has helped more people get over headaches than faith alone.

A headache isn't a sin, and it has nothing to do with sinful desire or behavior.

I don't care if people seek therapy if they think they need it. I do care when they claim faith in Christ isn't enough to overcome sin.

[mikeyc]

**What makes you define yourself as "attracted" to men? By calling yourself homosexual, I can assume that you aren't just wanting their friendship or admiring their personality traits. So I am curious where you draw the line between your definition of attration and lust? What is lust?**


Thank you for your kindly response.

I'll attempt to provide you with a picture, and then you will hopefully see what I mean when I describe myself as homosexual.

My earliest understanding of 'attraction' was towards men - Even going to the dentist or the barber as a child was a pleasure, mainly because they were men. I had a good relationship with my father and my mother, and I had a very normal, loving upbringing in a Catholic family. I was very loved and protected, and I never experienced any form of abuse, whether sexual or physical. My parents didn't even believe in physical punishment, so I was never spanked. If I misbehaved, I would be sent to my room until I was ready to apologise.

I was a very well behaved child, loving and generous.

I preferred to play with girls, and didn't like contact sports.

I can't think of anything in particular that might have caused my attraction to men. When I reached puberty, my sexual attraction was exclusively for males… other boys in my class at school and adult men. This was a distressing secret, of course, and remained so until I was nineteen.
As a Catholic, I learned that it was sinful, so I went through the usual guilt trip, while being unable to stop the feelings I had.

What people who haven't had this exclusively homosexual attraction don't seem to grasp is how all-encompassing it is. For a homosexual like me, it pervades every way that I respond and relate to males.
Seeing a female has never inspired any sort of physical or mental 'excitement'. When walking down the street in public, when I see males, I am attracted to their 'maleness', and their masculine attributes. Not just how they look, physical features, but how they move as men, and how they respond to situations and interact. It is very much an attraction to maleness. It isn't simply sexual.
When I look at men, I don't get physically excited in my genitals, but it is a 'stimulus' in the brain… seeing an interesting man, or one with a particularly friendly face… or standing beside a man who has a strong 'presence'.

Of course, this isn't attraction to ALL men. Think of it in the way that heterosexual men are attracted to women… It isn't every woman that a man finds attractive, and when you have an attraction to a woman, it isn't about stimulation of the genitals and wanting to bed her.

This is very much about attraction on all mental and emotional levels. Just the way that heterosexual men feel towards women. I might think about a man who has effected me this way, and maybe fantasise about him in ways that men fantasise about women… (although my perversions and fantasies have developed in a way where I would never actually desire any sexual contact with others. That's something that's been worked on).

I hope this helps you to understand why homosexual attraction isn't simply a choice. Yes, acting upon it is a choice, but having that attraction, for many like me, is no more a choice than it is for a heterosexual male to find women attracted.

Homosexual attraction is of course a mental disorder, by whatever means, but I hope that my own case will show how it isn't simply about sexual attraction, and is why is such a difficult disorder to cure.


** One thing though, I don't think you can speak for the effects of religious conversion since you haven't experienced it.**

Regarding this, I was a devout Christian for decades. From being a child, I sought the Truth through the Church, and explored various denominations throughout my adult life. At one time, when I had been away from the Church for a few years, (I was a DJ in a homosexual night club) I was handed an invitation to attended an Anglican (Episcopal) Requiem Mass for victims of AIDS. I went along on the Saturday afternoon, where I was one of just 20 people who attended in this vast Gothic church. It was sung, with incense, a Bishop, a Catholic priest to give Communion to any Catholics who might attend, and the whole service was very solemn. Most of the others attending were local older women from the parish. There was nobody else there from the club where the invitations were handed out.
During the service, I knelt in the pew, and I offered myself to the Lord, telling Him that I would do whatever he wanted. It was quiet, peaceful, and while I knelt there with my head down on the bench in front, I wept floods of tears in my private silence as the Service proceeded.

The following day, I attended the Eucharist in that parish church, and every Sunday for the following few years. I eventually converted to Orthodoxy where I finally found my spiritual home.

I understand the power of Faith. However, God does not promise to physically heal us of our sickness in this life. He heals us the way He chooses to heal. He isn't bound by rules or Books. The rules and Books are for our benefit, not His.
God is greater than anything we know, and His Wisdom is beyond our understanding. He is greater than Christianity or any other individual Faith. Faith reaches out into a place beyond what we can know or experience, into a place unknown.


**To believe He can transform us is what faith is all about.**

Yes, I am sure that He can do whatever he wants to do... but what God might 'transform' is His choice, and not ours. It would be arrogant for anyone to believe that God would cure or change them, simply because we wanted Him to. "God works in mysterious ways" and He also has a sense of humour. If someone needs to be healed for peace of mind and health of the soul, then maybe they will be healed... but not always in the way that you may want. To have Faith in God is to trust in Him, not to try to force His hand.


**We are moral creatures who do recognize right from wrong, and while we cannot be sinless (we all have a sin nature), we can make right choices.**

I try to approach the subject of homosexuality from 'common sense'. My moral foundation is because I am human, and not because of my Christian background. My concern isn't for the cure of individuals from the disorder, but for what is practically best for society as a whole. My concern isn't for 'sin', but for what is logically good for society.
The homosexual agenda is not good for the fabric of society, or for individuals who are exposed to homosexual enticement or 'activity'.
If individuals wish to try and cure their disorder, then they know that it isn't like changing your car or giving up smoking. It is more than simply a compulsion.
When Christian homosexuals are told that they are condemned if they fail to be cured, as has been muted in this thread, then it's no wonder that some attempt suicide.

To be cured would be the ideal... to cure all disorders and illnesses in the world would be ideal... but real life doesn't deal in ideals. It deals in human weakness and frailties. It deals in facts on the ground.
Some are be cured, and some are not. That's the real world. Each individual is unique.


**So God bless your efforts and your honesty no matter what. I wish you continued success!**

You are very gracious and generous of spirit. Thank you.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

I was trying to answer several people very quickly last night and I think I just rambled too much. Your post #61 is very good, by the way. I like this statement: " I was given insights into the causes of my behaviors, motivations I didn't know I had, and what some of the causes and influences were that led to such behaviors.

It's not that I am bothered by people seeking therapy. I am bothered by the claim that faith is not enough to overcome sin. The "faith alone is dangerous" statement is what bothers me. Faith alone is enough for most sinners. If faith fails I would first ask, is the faith genuine. The sin of homosexuality was being conquered through faith in Christ before psychologists ever come up with a theory on the matter.

My brother had a drinking problem, went to AA and developed a drug problem, ran up his credit cards to fund the problem, and ended up filing bankruptcy. At the same time he had an adultery problem and eventually his marriage ended. The sinful state of his heart was the core problem, but keeping bad company fueled it. Blessed is the man walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the path of sinners, now sits in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night..."

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Thank you for the lengthy explanation. I'm curious about this, if you don't mind my asking:

Seeing a female has never inspired any sort of physical or mental 'excitement'. When walking down the street in public, when I see males, I am attracted to their 'maleness', and their masculine attributes. Not just how they look, physical features, but how they move as men, and how they respond to situations and interact. It is very much an attraction to maleness. It isn't simply sexual.

I want to put this thoughtfully, but maybe there is no way to do it and not offend. If so, I'm sorry ahead of time. If the attraction is to "maleness," why do so many homosexuals act like females, enjoy the company of females, and hook-up with other feminine acting males? That doesn't make sense to me.

Regarding faith, Christ is the only way to true freedom from sin because He offers an inner transformation. Love for Him replaces love for self, and so our desires change accordingly. A misunderstanding of the gospel and of what faith is can lead someone to think they are Christians when in fact they are simply being deceived by a false gospel. This day and age with our churches selling out on key biblical doctrines and watering down the gospel to be nothing but fire insurance, the deceptive gospel is more accepted that the real thing. The fake gospel has no power to save or transform. All true believers should be out in the world exposing the lies of the false teachers, but it all gets so overwhelming sometimes that the most we can do is try to keep ourselves focused on our own inner transformation.

I guess what I mean is, when you look at Christianity in general, all that glitters is not gold. There are many with the formality of religion who have had no inner transformation at all. And even true Christians can sometimes make sinful choices -- all true believers will always repent -- and become a poor witness. I am so sorry for that.

When Christian homosexuals are told that they are condemned if they fail to be cured, as has been muted in this thread, then it's no wonder that some attempt suicide.

They are not condemned -- yet. Their sin is condemned. They are called to repentance so they may be restored. As for the feelings of defeat and despair, you understand that truth is not meant to cause someone to commit suicide. I wouldn't blame the truth for the emotional problems of the individual.

My niece practiced lesbianism for a number of years and ended up committing suicide. She left a suicide note. It had absolutely nothing to do with any conflict over her lesbianism, or anyone judging her by any moral standards. She had made a mess of her life in many ways, not just this one. Her heart was steeped in sin and selfishness. She thought she was a Christian, but she never acted like one. It becomes difficult to know what to say to someone like that. She was absolutely not struggling with homosexual desire -- ever. She was perhaps struggling with loneliness and a lack of any moral compass. Lesbianism was just one of many ways should chose to rebel against norms. I would say she had emotional problems, and she did suffer some sexual abuse as a child. I do not think that excuses any of her poor choices later on, even though I greatly sympathized with her trauma.

You may wonder where I was in my nieces life. I was at a loss for what to do, and I didn't want to step on my sister's toes. I am probably also guilty of not being willing to sacrifice my time and energy on sharing the truth with her. I had my own family to worry about. I don't know if I could have reached her or not. She was pretty strong-willed. I regret that I didn't try harder.

There are many more details about her life, but I don't really feel like they are mine to share.

If you ever get the chance and have the desire, go here and read the transcripts of the series on the sinfulness of sin.. Also, there is a series on the transforming power of scripture and the sufficiency of scripture here. He will explain the Christian perspective better than I can.

You are a very smart and thoughtful guy, mikeyc. Thanks again for explaining your situation to me. I believe in the power of prayer very much, so I hope you don't mind if I pray for you and your struggle. And again, I especially thank you for your unselfish concern for how this affects society as a whole.

[mikeyc]

***If the attraction is to "maleness," why do so many homosexuals act like females, enjoy the company of females, and hook-up with other feminine acting males? That doesn't make sense to me.***

You could apply that same logic to women... if they like men, why do they act like women?...
answer: because they are women and not men.

I don't think you are quite accurate when saying so many homosexuals act like females. If you compare 'effeminate' homosexuals with females, the similarities are obvious, but much of the 'campness' of homosexuals is more 'unmasculine' than feminine, in that women don't really have those mannerisms. Many homosexual mannerisms tend to be much more exagerated than you see in most females.

Much of this can be learned from others, but for many, it is just how they are. There are effeminate/camp children who don't learn that behaviour from others. My own suggestion is that they develop it from whatever has given them the homosexual disorder... possibly whilst in the womb.

Effeminate homosexuals stick together for the same reasons that other 'types' of people stick together. Security, familiarity, common interests etc.
As I said before... homosexuality is not just about being sexually attracted to the same sex. The homosexual psychology is intricate. This is where blanket analysis falls down, and why it's impossible to say to each homosexual "you can be cured by prayer/faith/therapy"... or any other individual method.



Regarding faith...

That is your own belief, as a Moslem has his and a Hindu has his own... and an agnostic will wait and see.

What you say is relevant to Christians, and I understand what you mean. Repentance is a help, but not the full solution. If that were so, then all repentant Christians would be healed of homosexual attraction, and they aren't.

This is where my point about individuality comes into play. You describe Christians with different approaches and different things in their hearts. This will always be the case... and remember that most homosexuals are probably not Christian in the way you portray a Christian, and many homosexuals who wish to be cure will not be Christians.
This makes your 'repentance' cure a very limited solution to for the majority of people.
If you are saying that homosexuality can only be cured through true repentance to Jesus Christ, then you are saying that the majority of homosexuals wanting a cure will not find one.
This being the case, then you have to consider that your solution is limited only to the minority, and that there also needs to be a policy of educating self-constraint and other ways to prevent homosexual 'pollution'.


Don't feel any guilt about your niece. You had good reasons to not get involved, and in the end, each individual is responsible for their own life decisions. We all carry around things which sometimes sit heavily on our shoulders, but your own immediate family must always come first for you.

Very sorry my reply has been so delayed. I've been busy.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

You could apply that same logic to women... if they like men, why do they act like women?... answer: because they are women and not men.

It is not the same thing at all. Effeminate homosexuals are not women; they are men. But if they are attracted to men because they are attracted to maleness and masculinity, then it doesn't make sense for them to be attracted to other effeminate men who, as you admit, are unmasculine. Why couldn't they be attracted to a bull-dyke? She's more manly than most men, definitely more manly than an effeminate gay man.

The thing that twists logic in this as much as anything is, to be attacted to your same sex is like being attracted to yourself.

Do you think that homosexual desire, defined as a disorder, is rooted in an inability to identify as your natural gender? That seems a different problem to me than homosexuality. Not unrelated much of the time, but still, different. So my question is, is that pretty much always the case? Gay men feel more like women and lesbian women feel more like men? Thus, in being attracted to the same sex it is somehow mentally like being attracted to the opposite sex? Otherwise, it is like being attracted to yourself.

Like I said before, I do not doubt that a person can overcome their homosexuality without accepting Chrisitianity. They need a motive that is stronger than their enjoyment of the behavior. Habits of this sort must be hard to break. Which desire is strongest? What do you value most? To desire to quit means there is something you value more than homosexuality. That is a strong glimmer of health and hope.

That said, all humans have a sin nature and no amount of will power will change that. Christ is the only answer to that problem. You may conquer one sin and its related desires, but you will still have a sin nature in need of redemption and transformation.

[mikeyc]

But if they are attracted to men because they are attracted to maleness and masculinity, then it doesn't make sense for them to be attracted to other effeminate men who, as you admit, are unmasculine.

Just as normal men seek the companionship of other normal men as they have common outlook and interests, so effeminate homosexuals tend to stick together. It's not sexual attraction between them, but they find masculine men sexually attractive.

Gay men feel more like women and lesbian women feel more like men?

It's not as complex as that. Homosexual men feel like men (unless they have some desire to change gender, which is uncommon), and they relate to the same gender in a sexual way. Think of it more like normal men who have close friendships with other men, then take that idea further... and further... so that the attraction to same sex company becomes more than just companionship, best friend, soulmate... but becomes perverted into something more intimate.

Homosexual men don't thing of themselves in any way as women, even though there's a culture of calling each other 'she'. That is most prevalent amongst the effeminate homosexuals and those who openly receive anal penetration.

The majority of homosexuals don't appear to be especially effeminate. There are a large proportion who go out of their way to be extra masculine. There are many masculine ones who like the effeminate ones, because they can use them like a woman, although they aren't interested in women.

There are masculine ones who are only interested in other very masculine men, and they tend to vear towards a more raunchy sexual activity. There is certainly no identification with womanliness in how they relate to each other. That is homosexuality at it's most masculine and most sexually intense.

As you see, there are no simple answers to your questions, and the questions you have asked are very simplistic. I can't speak about lesbians because i haven't had any experience in that field. All i can talk about is my own experience and personal understanding of male homosexuals.

Homosexuality is a 'cult'. This is why it's program of homosexualisation of society is uneffected by Christian teaching. They will argue by using Scripture to justify their actions, but in the end, they will use media to change the beliefs of the public.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Very interesting. Thanks for the information.

With my niece, as I said before, she wasn't attracted to women. I would say she was generally attracted to men but developed the habit and social life of a lesbian. With that came dressing/looking like a man. But both women looked for the world like men. You had two women who acted like two men but related to each other as members of the opposite sex. For my niece, she looked for all sorts of ways to rebel against the norm in life. This was just one after a list of others. She always said it wasn't about the sex, though she participated in it. Perhaps she had some anger and distrust of men. I don't know. She was in therapy for years, but hey, if you are counseled by fools you aren't going to find the help you need. As far as I knew, all the counselors (taxpayer funded) encouraged the homosexuality and insisted she identify permanently with it. That was tragic. At the point she chose to tryout that lifestyle, all the effective help for her problems ended, if ever there was any effective help.

The Apostle Paul notes that some members of the early church had been homosexuals, but they had turned away from it to Christ. So there is a long history of homosexuals finding help in Christianity. May original point on this thread was to say that faith alone has helped many in the past and that calling it "dangerous" was unfair and contrary to Christian theology.

[ArGee]

There's something wrong with merely singling out gays as candidates for comprehensive head-bending "reparative" programs; because the sexual disorder in our society is broader than just "gays" with a "problem.".

There is something wrong with determining that homosexuality is the only sexual disorder that needs help. That said, there is nothing wrong with determining that homosexuality is a further progression of the disorder, just as murder is a further progression of the disorder that stems from anger. Both are wrong, but one is more dangerous.

Shalom.

[Mrs. Don-o]

..."there is nothing wrong with determining that homosexuality is a further progression of the disorder."

Got that right. I had a couple of friends who suffered from SSA. The worst, most destructive and most dishonest thing in the world would be to say, "Give in to it. It'll make you happy."

[ArGee]

The worst, most destructive and most dishonest thing in the world would be to say, "Give in to it. It'll make you happy."

I don't know if you remember the poem Desederata. They actually used to read it during Mass sometimes when I was in school. The final line of the poem was, "Strive to be happy."

I wonder if the people who wrote that poem ever figured out that the surest way to be miserable in your life is to strive to be happy.

If you want to be happy, strive to find and fulfill your purpose. And I suspect that nobody will find that their purpose is embodied in their sexual organs.

Shalom.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Right. But part of your purpose could be related to your sex organs. After all, sexual intercourse is a constitutive element of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony. It's a way to bond with your spouse and bring a family into existence, and get to be a creative co-partner with God. That's a pretty big purpose.

It gets so deep-down happy when it's not self-serving, but God-serving. "The Joy of the Lord is my strength."

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Clarification:

I wish you great success in your efforts to change and do not wish to discourage you. But, I do want to say what I believe with all my heart. The ONLY sure way to have victory over sin in both thought and deed is in Christ. This way will not work for those unwilling to call sin sin. Christianity is not sex therapy. You don't come to Christ because you want freedom from one problem. You come to Christ because you know you need Him for forgiveness and freedom from all your sins. You see the depravity of your heart and you know you need a Savior and Lord. He does the work through you as you surrender your life to Him. That's the Christian message that doesn't work for you because you do not see this as a sin problem. It won't even work for those who see Christianity as only a good therapy for one unwanted problem. It only works for those who are ready to turn from all sin -- heart and deed -- and put their lives in God's hands.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. So when a person tries to define homosexual therapy as Christian therapy, I cry foul. But when you, mikeyc, reject the entire sin issue but still seek help for this one problem, I don't cry foul. From my perspective, you can turn from one sin if you desire to do so, even if you do not call it sin. The human will, even in its fallen state, is able to do that most of the time. Your life will be better because of it. But you can't change your general bent to sin and selfishness. We all have it, and faith in Christ is the only hope for that problem.

I wanted to make doubly sure I made that clear. Faith in Jesus Christ is the best way because it is the most complete. It deals with the heart of the problem. Definitely it is not dangerous. Failures have to do with a weakened and corrupted church preaching a watered-down and false gospel and a phony and ineffective faith. Religious ritual saves no one. A man is closer to understanding the gospel when he feels helpless in his sin than when he sits in a lovely, incense filled cathedral and hears a flowery message that never convicts his heart with the truth about his own nature.

[GSWarrior]

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