'Conservatism' -- Social movement or Political movement?

[Dominic Harr]

If I may, I'd like to ask for an informal 'poll' of FReepers:

There are 2 'Conservative' movements in this country.

• Social Conservatives -- concerned about moral and social issues like gay marriage, teaching of Darwinism, etc.

• Political Conservatives -- 'conservative' meant as in, "Conservative with my money". Careful. Careful with spending, with defense, careful not to jump to conclusions, careful not to put "solutions" in place that will make the problem worse.

All I would like to know is, what % of us are which? Please respond and say which, or both.

[GovernmentShrinker]

If you're financially conservative but socially liberal, you'll end up voting on the side of your social causes, meaning more gubmint money,

Not so. I'm financially very conservative and socially very liberal. "Do whatever you like, but do it on your own dime" is my philosophy in a nutshell. And I don't think government should be undertaking social engineering programs of ANY kind. I don't want to be forced to pay for abstinence programs, and I don't want to be forced to pay for how-to-put-a-condom-on-a-cucumber programs.

[Dominic Harr]

Now that's a platform I could get behind.

I think most all of us of both stripes could.

And I think *if* we want another 'Contract with America', this is the kind of conversation we need to have.

[freedumb2003]

I've always thought the best definition of conservative was one who put individual freedom ahead of everything else, to the point where they would give their life for it.

A liberal is someone who puts what the think is best for society ahead of all else, to the point where they would take your life for it.

Wow -- good idea for a tag if it can be wordsmithed down!! Please dont take this wrong: is that original or paraphrasing someone else?

[GovernmentShrinker]

Not so, per my post #41.

[GovernmentShrinker]

If we're going to deal with marriage laws at the state level, then no state should be required to recognize ANY marriage. Personally, I want the government totally out of the business of defining/licensing/registering marriages.

[TChris]

Your "political" conservative is generally referred to as "fiscal" conservative by most. Both social and fiscal conservatism are important political considerations.

Personally, I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian/conservative.

[freedumb2003]

Don't know how to do it but we MUST reverse once and for all New London.

With no private property guarantees, there is no Nation.

[longtermmemmory]

You have to be careful asking this because you have many looney libertarians around here.

Short answer it is both and inseperable.

The effort to split the two is a Moby product of the Lackoff "win with words" propaganda scam to try and revitalize the left by arguing the myth that the two are seperate.

[SierraWasp]

"...enforcement of social rules like marriage and victimless crimes."

This shows me you have a problem with religious as well as social conservatives. You guys like taking advantage of the organizational skills and the dedication of religious conservatives, but boy you hate it when it comes time to respect them for what they value!!!

This observation does not come from a bible thumper. I haven't been a member of organized religion for almost 45 years!!! So don't start flamin me just because I gave ya somethin to think about...

[oldleft]

That's an original, and thank you very much (even though I missed the "y" in "they".)

[mc6809e]

I agree. The "other" 'conservative' would probably (really) be a Libertarian.

I'd say the older conservatism was more of a realistic libertarianism - mostly against government power and regulation and supporting of freedom, within limits.

Today it seems conservatism just means socially conservative. You can get away with all sorts of government expansion of power and spending and control, but as long as you're pro-life, it's okay.

[Dominic Harr]

Its hard to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal since social liberals want to raise taxes and increase the size of mandates and gov expenditures which pretty much screw up the whole 'fiscal conservative' notion.

I would argue that is 'political' liberals.

"Socially" liberal just means, "live and let live", as long as it's victimless.

[mc6809e]

I don't separate the two. The personal is the political is the personal.

I prefer to emphasize "the political is the personal" part.

If people understood haw their politics personally affected others, how the law is a personal threat to others, maybe they'd be more careful guiding government power.

[Dominic Harr]

Both social and fiscal conservatism are important political considerations.

I disagree, and I think this is the 'conceptual' error that has kept Cs from being hte power that they will eventually be.

"Social" movements are not, or at least *should not* be political.

Socially, people are all over the map. But your 'political' leanings are in question when you answer the question, "should govt pass laws to support your preferred social behavior and punish other social behaviors you find objectionable".

And I only mean when there is no 'victim'.

[Dominic Harr]

You guys like taking advantage of the organizational skills and the dedication of religious conservatives, but boy you hate it when it comes time to respect them for what they value!!!

I'm sorry if I gave you some reason to believe that.

I do *respect* what religious conservatives feel about marriage, homosexuality, and the like. I just don't believe it is a "Political" issue.

Just like I am against prostitution. But I do not think it should be criminal. That is not a function of govt.

I'm trying to point out the difference between 'social' views and their political counterparts. Social views are fine, until someone wants to enforce them on others.

Socially Liberal simply means, "live and let live", to me.

[Blackirish]

I'm a libertarian/conservative.
The Social Conservatives obsession with abortion, guns and queers I find strange. They seem not care anymore about good day to day conservative governance. Things like tax reform, tort reform, vouchers, deficits, entitlement reform...even the WOT.....are rarely discussed here when considering future candidates.

[mc6809e]

You have to be careful asking this because you have many looney libertarians around here.

"They hate us for our freedoms."

[GunsareOK]

I agree 100%. Left this out.

[Dominic Harr]

If we're going to deal with marriage laws at the state level, then no state should be required to recognize ANY marriage. Personally, I want the government totally out of the business of defining/licensing/registering marriages.

Exactly my feelings.

[DeweyCA]

Both