Immigration is not the pox neo-Know Nothings make it out to be

"I want the F@CKING law enforced."

Ahhh..

Now we're getting somewhere.

Watch the government, they're going to sell you some bullshit fence, call it "taking action on the illegal alien" issue, and pat themselves in the back when they get re-elected based on their stupid, useless gesture.

WE DON'T NEED MORE LAWS, WE NEED LAW ENFORCEMENT.

WE DON'T NEED A FENCE, WE JUST NED TO JAIL THE PEOPLE ENCOURAGING THE BORDER JUMPERS.

One third of illegals are on welfare.

I don't get patted on the head and sent on my way with no punishment at all. What I would love to happen when an illegal is caught is immediate deportation. Unfortunately that doesn't happen. Catch and release. Catch and release. Catch and release. Ad nauseum.

One third of illegals are on welfare.

Link? 100% of Americans that are retired on a pension, and receiving Social Security are the recipient of welfare benefits.

"Don't you have to have a SSN to file your taxes? If so, how does one get one except through document fraud if they are illegal?"

"Have you ever wondered what happens to all the money collected for Social Security that beneficiaries don't get?
What happens to the money assigned to people using false identities, or names matched with the wrong Social Security Number (SSN), or newlyweds who forgot to register their name changes with the Social Security administration?
The answer lies in a little-known aspect of the Social Security behemoth known as the Earnings Suspense File (ESF).
The ESF has become a hotbed for debate over everything from immigration rights to identity theft, as it continues to accrue money at roughly $6 billion a year, with the total as of 2005 sitting at $519 billion.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/02/ss_secret_stash.html

Why doesn't the government do anything about illegal immigration?

The government IS doing something...it's making a huge amount of money from illegal aliens.

"I don't get patted on the head and sent on my way with no punishment at all."

You don't get punished, you get fined.

"Everything else I hear on this subject is rationalizations and leftist propaganda."

Including building a stupid, worthless fence.

That was an anti ALL immigration movement.

Why are you so afraid of a fence? You sound like Fox "It wouldnt work but please, please dont build it."

Take it up with Tony.

Forum rules state that we can't change the title...and P.S., that's NOTHING compared to the usual name-calling involved in these threads.

I do not see the same degree and intensity of moral outrage leveled against those drink and drive, or who don't buckle their seat belts or smoke in a non-smoking section of a restaurants.

Me neither. That's one of the things that really bothers me about this issue.

Does the ITIN allow them to pay FICA and State Income tax or only federal income tax?? I really am not sure, but I have been told the ITIN can only be used for federal income tax purposes. How would the FICA payments be credited to Social Security without a Social Security number? I may be mistaken, but I don't think Social Security recognizes the ITIN number.

I actually know people who hire illegals and I know they pay them in cash, and some have false documents that they use to get on a payroll. That is really the extent of my knowledge. In my area there are those who hire illegals and that is how they pay them. I also know that those who won't knowingly hire illegals insist on seeing a Social Security card before they will hire anyone- so the ITIN would not allow anyone to get a job in my area that I know of. Living on the border, my husband had to produce his Social Security card for every job he had for the last 15 years. No social security card, no work. I know there is a thriving business in fake Social Security cards and identity theft for illegals- if the ITIN is such a magical thing, why do they need false documents?

You're showing your ignorance.

Ask the SSA where the $500+ billoion dllars in their arnings Suspense File came from.

Funny the Israelis don't consider their fence to be all that worthless, and it's not even completed. It's reduced Palestinian incursions from the West Bank tremendously.

Immigration is not the pox neo-Know Nothings make it out to be

By Tony Snow

Sorry Tony, this is one instance where you should have kept your trap shut and let people wonder if you were an idiot on this subject, rather than open it and remove any doubt.

http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | Illegal immigration seems to have spawned a dreary debate about the merits of Mexicans, when it should be drawing attention instead to a very different matter: how to build on the luster and wonder of the American dream.

"Memo to Tony: " Just so you'll know Tony, this debate is not about the merits of Mexicans. It's about the merits of United States Citizens, about our culture and our right to have one. I haven't got one bad word to say about Mexican citizens in their own nation. I respect their rights. I respect their culture. I respect them having to put up with a government that is sadly lacking. I am sorry their opportunities down there aren't up to par. And that's where it ends Tony. I do not have to surrender my nation on the alter of fixing Mexicos problems. What's more, I'm sorry you didn't have a clue that this was true.

Immigration is not the pox neo-Know Nothings make it out to be. Begin with the astounding influx of illegal immigrants, the vast majority of whom hail from Mexico.

Where to begin responding with this third grader's view of the world... Yes Tony, it is a pox on our nation. We have somewhere between fifteen and thirty million illegal immigrants in our nation. Recent accounts state that upwards of 12% of our workforce is made up of illegal immigrants. Anotherwords, for those having a hard time coming up to speed on this topic, 12% of our workforce is working in the United States in violation of U.S. federal laws. 12% of our nation's employment positions have been filled by businesses in violation of federal law. This is no small matter. It is devistating on a number of levels.

First, this situation is fraught with corruption. Employess are corrupt. Employers are corrupt. The government has been corrupted by allowing it to take place. While businesses pay sub-par wages, depressing the employment pools value, these corrupt employees pop out children at an excelerated rate to use as ankor children, and all of them use our healthcare industry as their own piggy bank. Employers don't have to contribute to insurance coverage. Employees don't have to pay for insurance. Who takes it in the shorts for this Tony?

The LAUSD has the second largest construction project in the United States at this time Tony. It's second only to Boston's "Big Dig". You see Tony, we can't build classrooms fast enough to house all the children of illegal immigrants. About 45 schools will go online this year Tony. That's not enough new classrooms. Even those won't be enought. Do you begin to get the picture Tony? No! Of course not!

This barely scratches the surface bud.

While the population includes an eye-popping number of crooks, drug-dealers and would-be welfare sponges, it also provides a helpful prop for sustaining American economic growth and cultural dynamism.

My goodness how easily you reduce the problems of illegal immigration to one sentence, then excuse away those problems with gobble-de-gook.

And eye-popping number of crooks? Drug-dealers? Would-be welfar sponges? No problem for you Tony. After all, it also provides a helpful prop for sustaining Amercian economic growth and above everything else, "Cultural Dynamism".

Tony, put down the crack pipe and listen up.

I don't have a problem with exposure to different cultures. Do you hear me? In my area there are Armenians, Koreans, Mexicans, Russians... look fella, don't preach to me about "Cultural Dynamism". I'm about "Cultural Dynamismed" to death. I, not you ,have to traverse through regions of my community were signeage has been changed to foreign languages. I cannot go into businesses that I used to frequent because it's actually dangerous for me to do so. If I want to risk my life, I only need to enter a store in my own nation, not all that far from my home. You have some nerve talking to me about "Cultural Dynamism" you son of a bitch.

I've got news for you Tony, the United States has had a thriving economy for two hundred and thirty-five years. During those two-hundred and thirty-five years, we allowing immigration in reasoned numbers, never enough to swamp our nation, always enough to do things right. Anotherwords, your economic comments are bull-shit. Whole regions of our nation didn't have to approach the Quebec/Canadian model to sustain economic growth. And today Tony, it still doesn't, even though we are balkanizing it to an alarming degree.

Princeton University sociologist Douglas S. Massey reports that 62 percent of illegal immigrants pay income taxes (via withholding) and 66 percent contribute to Social Security. Forbes magazine notes that Mexican illegals aren't clogging up the social-services system: only 5 percent receive food stamps or unemployment assistance; 10 percent send kids to public schools.

Tony, are you really so far out of touch on this subject that you'd accept a university sociologist and a business oriented magazine's assurances on this topic? Let me guess, you'd accept Jimmy Carter's assurances on North Korean nuclear ambitions as well. And hey, Dan Rather would be a great person to ask about Fidel Castro. Go for it Tony. While you're at it, ask Harry Reid about Bush's actions in Iraq, and Cynthia McKenny's views on respect for police officers.

On the work front, Hispanic unemployment has tumbled to 5.5 percent, only slightly above the national average of 4.7 percent and considerably lower than the black unemployment rate of 9.3 percent.

Ah, Tony... Tony... wake up Tony... oh sorry there, I think you were dozing off. Do we have unemployment in this nation? Do we have people on welfare in this nation? Do we have people taking courses in this nation with funding from the government, still considered to be employed? Do we have people on work-fair? Anotherwords Tony, you can tout a lot of numbers these days that aren't worth the paper they're printed on. We have many people out of work in this nation. You're simply dilusional if you think you'll make some points with me by quoting some of the things you do here.

Economist Larry Kudlow praises Hispanic entrepreneurship: "According to 2002 Census Bureau data, Hispanics are opening businesses at a rate three times faster than the national average. In addition, there were almost 1.6 million Hispanic-owned businesses generating $222 billion in revenue in 2002."

Nobody here is damning Hispanics as it applies to entrepreneurship. I note that Larry and you did not distinguish between Hispanices here legally or illegaly. Why is that Tony? Tony, how many businesses were owned by citizens of northern european ancestry in 2002? Care to tell us how much revenue they generated?

Skeptics counter that immigrants have clogged our hospitals, which is true — but primarily in places that offer lavish benefits to illegal immigrants.

Once again, your article touches on a subject that reveals you know nothing about what you are addressing. Every hospital in the United States is required to treat anyone that presents themselves to their emergency room. They must take this person in, do a full assessment, provide emergency treatment if required, and if that patient requires it, the hospital must take all means possible to stabalize the patient. If that patient has had a heart attack, the hospital has to treat the patient.

Please Tony, what choice do the hospitals have over lavish vs no-so-lavish benefits? Let me expose you to some "Cultural Dynamism" bud, "NADA!"

As for crime, the picture doesn't quite conform to conventional wisdom. Heather McDonald discovered that illegal immigrants in 2004 accounted for 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants in Los Angeles and two-thirds of unserved felony warrants. (Gangs, aided and abetted by laws that prevent local officials from handing illegal-immigrant criminals over to federal authorities, account for much of the mayhem.)

Oh I'd say this conforms quite nicely. You just don't like it.

On the other hand, the most comprehensive survey to date of national crime data concludes, "In the small number of studies providing empirical evidence, immigrants are generally less involved in crime than similarly situated groups, despite the wealth of prominent criminological theories that provide good reasons why this should not be the case."

There is no other hand. The facts speak for themselves. In Californa it is accepted that there is less than 10% of the states populace that illegal immigrants. Most would state it's probably something around five percent. None the less, around 20 to 25% of California's state prison population are illegal immigrants. And by the way Tony, you do realize what types of crimes it would have to be to put these peope in the state pen, rather than deport don't you?

Authors Ramiro Martinez Jr. and Matthew T. Lee note, for instance, that the Latino homicide rate in Miami is three times that of El Paso, Texas, which has one of the nation's largest immigrant populations. That's not just an anomaly. Another major study, "U.S. Impacts of Mexican Immigration," by professors Michael J. Greenwood and Marta Tienda reports that "crime rates along the border are lower than those of comparable non-border cities."

If this is true, and I don't belive it for a moment, why is it that when border regulations were enforced more rigidly nearby a large U.S. city, auto thefts fell by 50%? Tony, if you'd give me enough time I could produce studies that would prove without a shadow of a doubt that smoking cirgarettes prolonged the life of smokers. Studies can be found to prove just about anything. You didn't know that?

This doesn't mean immigrants from Mexico are saints — it just means that they may not be the marauding horde some make them out to be. As it turns out, crime rates in the highest immigration states have been trending significantly downward.

Well there's all the proof I needed. Tony, who worked this up for you? Crime rates have been trending down in most if not all states. I can't believe that you would make a statement like that. It's is beneath you.

Total crime and property crime in California are half what they were in 1980; violent crime has fallen more than a third. The state's Hispanic population during that time has increased 120 percent.

Tony, lets cut to the chase. Please tell us why California's prisons have such a disproportionate representation of illegal aliens.

Similar trends apply in other high-traffic states, with the exception of Colorado. While Arizona's population grew 41.8 percent between 1993 and 2003, for instance, the rates for every major category of crime fell.

As I said before Tony, crime stats are down across the board. Perhaps you should look at vehicular manslaughters involving illegal immigrants. Perhaps you should look at rapes, child molestations, homicides and killings of police officers. Let us know what you find. I am constantly reading about these types of crimes commited by illegal immigrants. I am also constantly having to investigate other crimes where the nationality is not given, but it turns out in many cases to be an illegal immigrant that has perpetrated the crime.

Every crime committed in the United States by an illegal immigrant, has a victim that was sold out by business and our federal government. There should not be one death, one rape, one child molestation, one car theft, one robbery, one assault, one gang member, one gang ititiation involving more serious crimes or any other despicable thing take place on U.S. soil, at the hands of a person who should not be here.

Government officials, business employers, renters, local police who look the other way and the appologists for the illegal immigrant are bare a share of the guilt for every crime committed by an illegal immigrant on U.S. soil.

If a woman is raped, these folks bear blame. If a husband with a wife and three kids is killed, the above people bear blame. The list of crimes is lengthy. Every single one that is committed, the above people enabled.

Why, then, the fuss?

What a pitty it is, that you do not know.

In America today, unemployment remains low, employment is booming, wages have begun to grow in tandem with the economy, tax receipts are exploding at the federal and state levels, and the United States continues to run laps around its European and Asian economic rivals.

You said this before Tony. It's no more valid now that it was above.

The United States somehow has managed to absorb 10 million to 20 million illegal immigrants not only without turning into Animal Farm, but while cranking up the most impressive economic recovery in two decades and the most prolonged period of declining crime in a century — all in the teeth of the post-9/11 recession, wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the double-whammy hurricane season of 2005.

So what you're saying is that the United States can no longer survive with the labor of U.S. Citizens. In your mind U.S. Citizens are so inferior that without the help of people with fourth to eighth grade education, the Unites States would no longer experience impressive economic recoveries or declining crime. We would never have recovered from 09/11 and couldn't have conducted the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and could not have survived the double-whammy hurricane season of 2005.

Is that about it? Just damn...

Rather than panicking, the political class might want to take a deep breath and attempt a little common sense.

Take a look at Quebec Canada. Take a deep breath Tony and attempt to think "French" vs "Spanish". Try to think separatism and the future of our nation. Try anyway Tony...

Virtually everyone agrees that we need to secure our borders, deport lawbreakers and slackers among the illegal-immigrant population, and revitalize the notion of citizenship by insisting that prospective citizens master the English language and the fundaments of American history and culture.

After the diatribe to this point, you want us to believe that you actually believe this? No you don't. You have just excused away the need to secure our borders. After all there's no down side. Why would we deport lawbreakers? There's no more of them in the illegal immigrant population than there is in the citizenry. You've just attempted to prove that. What do you mean slackers? You just said that they were all working hard and the best entreprenuers in the nation. Tony, did you by any chance read your article? You're contradicting everything you've said to this point, in this one lengthy sentence. You stated that we needed "Cultural Dynamism". Dang me for saying so, but that's esposure to people who don't use our language, don't give a damn about our nation's history, and for damn certain don't want any part of our culture. Well, you've got that "Cultural Dynamism" you praised. These people carry Mexican flags, hate the U.S., say that U.S. Citizens need to take the next boat to Europe and hope to set up a new nation here called Aztlan?

Have you turned on your television set in the last fifteen years?

The Statue of Liberty symbolizes America's affection for the world's tired and poor, the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Before someone razes Lady Liberty and decides to erect a wall to "protect" America from the world, shouldn't we at least spend a little time trying to get our facts straight?

Oh F--K you! AS IF, I needed you to tell me what the Statue of Liberty stands for. Let me tell you what it doesn't stand for, since you haven't a clue. It for damned certain doesn't stand for crime, surrender, the replacement of our culture with that of another people. It doesn't not stand for separatism be it white, black or brown. It doesn't stand for my family and I having to purchase a one-way ticket to Europe.

And you want to lecture us about getting our facts straight?

I have always liked you Tony. This is one of the most despicable pieces of trash I have ever read.

They are coming here because we pay more.

And you have a problem with this because...uh, why? What's it to you?

Princeton University sociologist Douglas S. Massey reports that 62 percent of illegal immigrants pay income taxes (via withholding) and 66 percent contribute to Social Security. Forbes magazine notes that Mexican illegals aren't clogging up the social-services system: only 5 percent receive food stamps or unemployment assistance; 10 percent send kids to public schools.

Tony is generally a upfront guy. His use of statistics here is mistaken or disingenuous. How can anyone know, first, how many illegals are here? Statistical method requires that you know. You need a denominator. We hear 5 million, 10 million, 11 million, 20 million, 25 million. They're all guesses; Massey's number is a WAG (wild @ssed guess).

Massey, by definition, doesn't know the size of the underground economy, so he can't know what portion of illegals pay into SS. Another WAG. Again, if you don't know how many illegals are here, and agencies as a rule are not allowed to inquire about status, there's no way you can know how many recipients are illegal (the numerator) or how many illegals are here (the denominator.) Another WAG.

Forbes' numbers on unemployment and food stamps again require that one 1) know the status of applicants and 2) know how many illegals are here. Another WAG.

Is the study this poor, or is Massey/Forbes being misquoted? Tony is an ex-school teacher and I believe has some math in his background. He may not have studied statistics, so maybe Massey's numbers are being used to say something they don't say. I suspect some of it is on Tony, because of the statistics about unemployment and school attendence...not. Again...where is the underground economy factored in? Finally, I don't want to know how many illegal families send kids to public school. If these families are larger than the typical American's, then that 10% number is meaningless at best and misleading at worst..

This reminds me of the first time I threw the BS flag in Econ 101. The Prof said that a study had identified certain factors that led to success. Statistically, these factors only accounted for ~60% of the results. The study concluded, therefore, that success was at least 40% luck. If they didn't understand how something worked, they defined it as "luck." Massey has defined away too much meaning.

I know you can do better, Tony!

Because it will not work, it will cost millions, and gets the politicos off the hook without doing what they MUST do, which is make sure that the laws are enforced.

The fact that you view our immigration laws to be as important as laws against throwing away walkman batteries is very telling.

I think you need your head examined. Looks like you're the one who is out of touch. I think you're the maniac... is that enough name-calling for you?
No one is asking to impeach our President. Least of all me.
Did you read this commentary by Tony Snow? I don't agree with him so I guess that makes me a maniac run wild? Get a grip. Not everyone looks at the world through your fuzzy lenses.