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Zogby poll on evolution is released
UPI web site ^ | 7 March 2006 | UPI

Posted on 03/07/2006 5:06:11 PM PST by Greg o the Navy

SEATTLE, March 7 (UPI) -- A poll by Zogby International reportedly shows most Americans support public school teachers presenting evolution and intelligent design theories.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; culturewar; education; evolution; intelligentdesign; poll; scienceeducation
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To: Boiler Plate
My original assertion is that entropy simple disallows complex information systems from forming on their own.

There is no scientific principle which suggests this.
201 posted on 03/12/2006 1:10:40 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dark Knight
"Evolution can proceed and build up the complex from the simple, thus moving uphill, without violating the second law, as long as another interlocking part of the system — the sun, which delivers energy to the earth continually — moves downhill (as it does) at a much faster rate than evolution moves uphill. If the sun were to cease shining, evolution would stop and so, eventually, would life."

The sun is not delivering much information at all, just random heat. When we consider the second law, only wrt/ thermodynamic heat, sure. With regard to (WRT/) information the jury is out -- and it is leaning strongly against the information rich system we have become.

The only point that now hangs the jury seems to be achieving something more than an intuitive definition of "information".

(If you want I have a nifty example I'll post, I least I think it is nifty.)

202 posted on 03/12/2006 1:20:08 PM PST by bvw
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To: bvw
The sun is not delivering much information at all, just random heat.

While true, this does not support a claim that the second law of thermodynamics prevents evolution. The sun delivers energy, not information. Localized decreases in entropy requires an input of energy from outside of the system to occur, not increases of information from outside of the system.
203 posted on 03/12/2006 1:49:41 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: ahayes
It doesn't matter.

It most certainly does.

And I am not shifting goal posts, the whole point is that a single simple chemical reaction which produces a more "complex" chemical is not life. Life is a tremendously complex arrangement of chemical reactions, involving non-spontaneous reactions. If the spontaneous reactions are observed in this complex arrangement, we call that death.

204 posted on 03/12/2006 3:08:28 PM PST by AndrewC (How to become rich... First you start out with a million dollars.)
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To: AndrewC

Nope, you're trying to change the topic. The original assertion by the original poster was that the Second Law demands that light always break down molecules and never build them up. That assertion has been refuted.

As for your second assertion, you're operating from the argument from personal incredulity again.


205 posted on 03/12/2006 3:18:40 PM PST by ahayes
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To: ahayes
That assertion has been refuted.

OK. So what? Answer the questions I asked you. I can flip the switch on a refrigerator and produce cold in a hot environment.

What second assertion involving personal incredulity? That life is a complex arrangement of chemical reactions? Or that living things die?

206 posted on 03/12/2006 3:34:33 PM PST by AndrewC (How to become rich... First you start out with a million dollars.)
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To: Boiler Plate
Okay, I see now what happened. You’re apparently unaware that evangelical has a non-religious definition. “#6 Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous: an evangelical liberal.

In #131 you said the following,

“Most evolutionists spend an inordinate time trying to undermine religion [interesting that you then go on to call “me” paranoid] with so called "science". Mr Hawkins being a current example. My engineering and science professors at Purdue did not feel the need to be so constrained to so called "scientific" definitions such as the one you provided and it made for both good discussion and deep contemplation.”
You misunderstood #148 when I characterized your wanting ID in science to “two wrongs make a right” after your experience with leftist evangelism at Perdue. Evangelical meant zealous promotion of an ideology, not “Christian”. I tried to clarify that in #169 when you expressed confusion, but if you don’t know that evangelical has a secular definition, I guess that still wouldn’t mean anything. You apparently still though I was accusing Christians of evangelizing in college. On the contrary, Christians are underrepresented in Education. That should be adjusted, but not by teaching it as a science in science class.

Regarding your paranoia accusation being disingenuous, I guess I’m wrong. We’re just having a communication problem.. Regarding you being disingenuous otherwise, I’m aware of the common debate technique to repeat an awkwardly nice phrase in each post to throw off your opponent. But you post “warmest regards”, “sweet dreams” and call me “dear”, in posts accusing me of dishonesty, paranoia and cowardliness.

#160 Honestly you are trying to split hairs just to get your way.
#174 I don't know what or where you have studied, but your point is pure speculation at best and down right paranoid at worst.
#176 It was becoming more and more difficult trying to understand and respond to your unsubstantiated paranoia.
#194 Look if you feel that you can not talk about God in the science classroom because you are going to be made fun of, then OK,
#198 These are simply your own paranoid fears.

Discussion styles can either be reasonable and friendly or they can be condescending and insulting. If you repeatedly try both in the same posts, it’s either disingenuous or weird.

Regards,
Bill

207 posted on 03/12/2006 9:13:22 PM PST by elfman2
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To: elfman2
EM2,
In regards to condescension, first remove the log from your own eye. Failing that, don't bother responding.
Best Regards,
Boiler Plate
208 posted on 03/12/2006 9:51:44 PM PST by Boiler Plate (Mom always said why be difficult, when with just a little more effort you can be impossible.)
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To: Boiler Plate
" In regards to condescension, first remove the log from your own eye. Failing that, don't bother responding. Best Regards,"

So much for giving you the benefit of the doubt. Looks like you’re just a nut.

209 posted on 03/12/2006 9:57:46 PM PST by elfman2
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To: elfman2
Elfguy,
You just proved my point. Do you want a pike for that log or have you removed all the mirrors from your house?
Warmest Regards,
Boiler Plate
210 posted on 03/12/2006 10:55:53 PM PST by Boiler Plate (Mom always said why be difficult, when with just a little more effort you can be impossible.)
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To: AndrewC

You basically said that although one type of reaction may proceed in the presence of light, you don't see how any number of chemical reactions could produce in the end a living system. That's the argument from personal incredulity, demonstrated when someone states disbelief in something because he doesn't understand or cannot imagine how it could be true. There's nothing particularly wrong with this. However, one's incredulity doesn't count as proof. You might not be able to imagine how a living system might arise by aggregation of various molecules and gradual modifications. However, there are a lot of people who can imagine it. Does this constitute proof on either side? Nope. The best we can do is go looking for evidence that it might be plausible or implausible. The field of "prebiotic evolution" is providing evidence that it's not so implausible as all that.

All of which is not really relevant to the theory of evolution itself. The theory of evolution concerns itself with heritable changes in the genetic material, not how the genetic material got there in the first place. Interestingly there are plenty of theistic evolutionists who believe that God made the first living cell and sent it on its way, while there are others who believe God engineered the process of abiogenesis and subsequent evolution like he engineers the weather--steering everything to produce the desired result, but typically not interfering in any way that breaks the laws of nature.


211 posted on 03/13/2006 6:12:01 AM PST by ahayes
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To: Boiler Plate
"Elfguy,
You just proved my point. Do you want a pike for that log or have you removed all the mirrors from your house?
Warmest Regards, "

Fiddling with my screen name and obscuring insults doesn’t make your facade of “warmest regards” any less disingenuous or weird. But apparently nutty evasion is all that’s left of you when your argument is refuted. It doesn’t reflect well on you.

212 posted on 03/13/2006 7:17:15 AM PST by elfman2
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To: elfman2
EM2,
You are kidding right? You are accusing of messing with your handle? Hmm this may not be the right forum for you, maybe there is a kinder gentler forum out there for you.

Here's a little bit of advice for you. It is easier to change yourself than to change someone else. Anyways you are missing the opportunity here to repay the supposed evil I am inflicting upon you with kindness and thus winning the prize. Well best of luck to you. I am heading out of the country for the next two weeks and my plane leaves in 2 hours

As Always, Warmest Regards,
Boiler Plate
213 posted on 03/13/2006 1:16:00 PM PST by Boiler Plate (Mom always said why be difficult, when with just a little more effort you can be impossible.)
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To: Boiler Plate
"You are kidding right? You are accusing of messing with your handle? Hmm this may not be the right forum for you, maybe there is a kinder gentler forum out there for you."

The more to write, the more you reinforce that you’re bankrupt of anything substantive, reduced to goofy little evasions and posturing. You’re just acting like a fool. Keep up the good work…

214 posted on 03/13/2006 1:24:55 PM PST by elfman2
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To: ahayes

The really evil thing about the argument from incredulity is that it suggests we should not look for natural cuses.

Some anti-evolution posters phrase this as a concern for tax dollars wasted. Others fall back on the assertion that the assumption of natural causes is blasphemy.

This is the real nut of the case. The attempt to shut down inquiry. Just cheerleading for one outcome is no problem in my mind.


215 posted on 03/13/2006 1:26:11 PM PST by js1138
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To: ahayes
That's the argument from personal incredulity, demonstrated when someone states disbelief in something because he doesn't understand or cannot imagine how it could be true. ... However, there are a lot of people who can imagine it.

You seem to be blind to the statement along with it. We do observe death. That is evidence.

Rams have horns and there are horses. That does not mean I have to accept unicorns.

You appear incoherent. What is "prebiotic evolution" if is is not evolution, despite your later attempt at a distinction to another type of evolution? Your definition of implausibility seems to me, implausible.

Finally, despite your off-handed personal incredulity comment, I do understand the topic and I can imagine the complex chemical reactions. It is called life.

216 posted on 03/13/2006 5:22:25 PM PST by AndrewC (Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
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To: AndrewC
You appear incoherent.

No, you're just illiterate. I don't know why I bother!

217 posted on 03/13/2006 5:30:01 PM PST by ahayes
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To: ahayes
No, you're just illiterate.

An Inigo Montoya moment.

218 posted on 03/13/2006 5:45:26 PM PST by AndrewC (Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
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