Court hears Balkans genocide case (Serbia will be the first nation to be charged with genocide)

bbc ^ | 27 February 2006

[paudio]

The first trial of a state charged with genocide has opened in The Hague, where Bosnia-Hercegovina will accuse Serbia and Montenegro of war crimes. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is hearing the case, which Bosnia first brought 13 years ago.

It says Belgrade was responsible for crimes of genocide on its territory during the early 1990s Bosnian war.

Belgrade denies its intention was to wipe out Muslims in eastern Bosnia and says there is no proof of the claims.

[montyspython]

Yugoslavia was a Wilsonian nation building experiment that went haywire.

[kronos77]

That will just prolong missery on Balkans

[JMS]

Actually, they were not on their own. Croatia and the Herzegovina part of Bosnia-Herzegovina were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia was part of the Turkish Empire, winning their independence and becoming the Kingdom of Serbia prior to WWI. After WWI Croatia and Slovenia petitioned to become part of Serbia creating the Kingdom of Yugoslavia or Kingdom of Southern Slavs. Croatia and Slovenia were small countries and were looking to Serbia for protection.

[joan]

A fact in your mind only. This statement is total b*llsh*t.

I conclude it's right, and you have to look at it more as a one way street kind of thing.

America is big and dominates in culture, trade, innovation, military bases and involvement over the world, etc. While these small countries don't produce any culture that most Americans who not of that ethnic group care about.

They listen to American music, including Albanians in Kosovo - and are knowledgeable about hip hop, rap, etc. and do their own versions and imitations of this. They watch American movies, and if they have access to the internet, the conversations are by and large in English - gives them more motivation to learn, exposure and practice of the language, even if they don't know it well. They also have Americans acting big in their country - the bombing and occupation - or giving them money, working on aid projects.

America is big at shaping and influencing these countries, so they take notice, while Albania has no effective power or sway on Americans.

[flaglady47]

So, assuming that you have this knowledge you met some that are exceptions. When were you there by the way, just curious?

I've been all over Europe. Not too many people go to Kosovo as a vacation hot spot, in case you haven't noticed. And you spout out your broad generalizations based on your own anecdotal experiences in Kosovo. Maybe you run with the elite set who know more than the average Joe, but the idea that average Joe Kosovo knows more and is better educated in world events and the world at large than Americans is laughable. We have a broad middle class over here that are educated, in case you didn't notice, and in Kosovo there isn't. You can sit there and spout the virtues of Kosovo and its brilliant citizens all you want, but to say the least you strain credulity.

[ma bell]

back then, i listened to that station as well, maainly done in Serbian. Why or how could you have understood what they were saying if you were unable to translate my last post to you in Serbian? They had a 30 min English broadcast, which does not allow much information to be putforth. How much Serbian do you understand and speak? Tranlsate what I have here into Serbian to demonstrate your knowledgebase.

[joan]

That's good for 1910.

Let's look at a little more recent numbers:

Ethnic groups: Serb 37.1%, Bosniak 48%, Croat 14.3%, other 0.6% (2000)

So according to the CIA factbook, as of 2000, Bosniaks were 48% of the population.

Could you look up the percent of Bosniaks right before the war in 1991, and put that up?

They say they were "genocided" so I want to see what percentage they were before the war and how far it has fallen to reach 48%.

Then we could calculate that the Serbs owe the Bosniaks this much for "genocide":

(Prewar Bosniak percentage - 48 (postwar percentage)) multiplied by $10 billion. Therefore you will have the Serbs pay the Bosniaks $10 billion for each percentage point of population they lost.

I think that would be fair - so could you do that calculation?

[tgambill]

Of course, I met some Americans that could be exceptions. When you meet those Americans that have been there, then there's an immediate interest and sharing of experiences or opinions. The Albanians; many will have a relative or two, or three, that lives in either the U.S. Germany, UK or somewhere to make a living and sending the salary home. That is the way they do it, or should I say, one of the many ways the family makes a living. This has been going on for generations.

I was in Gjilan/Gnjilane, Kosovo from October 1999 to May 2004. A real eye opener, to say the least.

As far as a vacation land.....You mean, no one goes to "10 Flags over Kosovo"? but, I thought it was a vacation spot, my travel agent lied to me. Can't seem to find him, his office has since closed up....:)))

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[quote]And you spout out your broad generalizations based on your own anecdotal experiences in Kosovo.[quote]

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uhhhhhh, tough.....Uh, yes, in five years you sort of meet a lot of Albanians when you live there, unless one is a hermit. Being Security Chief I traveled all over Kosovo, and was not disappointed. They often speak 2-3 languages, and learned from watching TV and/or listening to the radio......In doing so, one tends to learn about the country that is sponsoring the TV program, you think?

---

You're taking this much too personal. It's a fact most Americans don't pay much attention to geography or world politics. It's not a slam, it's just a fact. It's not laughable, it's sad that many Americans don't take the time to learn about other countries.

Americans don't have to go to Kosovo to learn about it....they just have to read..Balkans...do internet research, due to the fact we have one extremely large base called Camp Bondsteel, and one small base in Kosovo. One is due to close in 2006 and the other in 2007. Many tax dollars are spent there and all and Americans has to do is read about it. Just because it's not a vacation spot, isn't a good excuse. They either know or they don't. They don't......they should. I also did not hang with any of the elite. Many of the elite are Albania Mafia figures or politicians that are catered to by the NATO and U.S. State Dept. I was just a little ole contractor with the OSCE. I'll send you links about what I'm talking about.

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[quote]We have a broad middle class over here that are educated, in case you didn't notice, and in Kosovo there isn't. You can sit there and spout the virtues of Kosovo and its brilliant citizens all you want, but to say the least you strain credulity.[quote]

---

***** Say what?? :)) I assume you mean "strain credibility"? :))

Yes, we have a broad middle class, and yes they are educated, but in Kosovo they are when it concerns the only livelyhood they have is world travel....it has nothing to do with education. The average middle class American makes headlines in the small town newspaper when they visit Rome or Spain or wherever. Going to Europe for the Average American is a big deal. Now if you are wealthy, that's a different story. Americans just don't have the interest in countries outside the U.S.....You visiting all over Europe is great. But, that is not the life of the average American.

I am known for not saying the politically correct thing. I have made an effort not to be politically or socially correct. My only exception is if I had a clearance or had signed a non-disclosure. That is a different story.

The middle class in Kosovo are more educated about European culture, because.......duh, they live there. They have family members there making money for the family to live, they visit, they learn the language.........:))

Americans have never had an interest in distant lands.....in short. It's the exception not the rule that they do. In Europe, it's the rule. Most can speak 2-3 languages......They learn to get by in either French, English, German..etc...or several languages in a manner of months. Many Americans are lucky if they can say Good Morning in Spanish, as they learned it in high school or college, but have forgotten....etc......

I'm not spouting the Virtues of Kosovo, I'm spouting the truth. I've met many back here that did not even know where Kosovo was, much less are we still there and certainly not about the unfortunate circumstances we created there.

My family moved to the U.S. in 1773 or so.....So, I'm not a citizen of another country. :)) I'm just telling you my experience and from first hand observation over a very long period of time. Try it yourself.......talk to 10 people about Kosovo and see what you get......Talk to a Kosovar, he will tell you they have a cousin in Chicago, New York or Boston and they have visited. I ask, how do you speak English so well, they will say, by watching TV, or radio or just talking to people.

My credibility with you is the least of my concerns by the way. You seem to be a bit.....uh hum....emotional....:)))

[markomalley]

Therefore you will have the Serbs pay the Bosniaks $10 billion for each percentage point of population they lost.

I think that would be fair - so could you do that calculation?

No I couldn't do that calculation. But not because I couldn't get the information. I'm sure that the communists took a census once or twice.

The reason why I couldn't is because I don't think a single dime should be paid. And I don't think that anybody outside of the countries involved should have lifted a finger for any reason.

You may think that would be fair. Me, I think that it's none of my blasted business.

And that was my original point: we (the US) should have kept our noses out of your business.

[attiladhun2]

These are a people who still practice blood feuds for crying out loud--and you're going to tell me they are some kind of superior cosmopolitans?!?! Gimmee a friggin' break!!!!

[ma bell]

I'm off to the box shortly, tom.

keep hammering away at these people on here, regardless if they are pro-Serb or anti-Serb etc... those hacks on LF have been comical relief. I just wonder which one of them is hoplite in drag, disguise.

You up for a trip to the Balkans as part of my Serbian Cycling Challenge 2007? It will be heading through PV, skimming the Kvo border.

[joan]

The reason why I couldn't is because I don't think a single dime should be paid.

I only asked you to do this because the Bosniak population has risen, percentage-wise. Therefore you would have gotten a negative number - I wanted you to see that for yourself, because I am always pointing out that they saw a gain relative to the others (Croats and Serbs) after the war versus before. And so I ask: what kind of "genocide" is it that the "genocided" people end up a larger percentage than the ones who allegedly were doing the "genocide"?

[attiladhun2]

To further complicate things each side would throw culturally appropriate articles into the graves to make it look like the other side did the deed.

[attiladhun2]

Sorry--I meant this for someone else.

[attiladhun2]

These are a people who still practice blood feuds for crying out loud--and you're going to tell me they are some kind of superior cosmopolitans?!?! Gimmee a friggin' break!!!!

[tgambill]

superior cosmopolitans?? who said that....? if you plan on earning a living in Germany, France, U.S......etc...what would you do? If the entire support of your family, which is large, depends on you or you sending a family member to another country, and....it has been a practice that is generations old, what do you think? Superior cosmopolitians???? has nothing to do with it. I challenge you to talk to 10 Americans that have not visited Europe or been overseas, or even have for that matter and ask them about the history, current events or whatever about the Balkans. Then find a few Albanians if you can, and try it yourself.

Americans have always been isolationist.....Our education system is also in bad shape......otherwise, I'm moving on here. :)

What has blood feuds got to do with geography, history and surviving......in a world where your livelihood depends on working in other countries and picking the right one.....that works.

Its a matter of culture........and surviving not being a "cosmo"....:))

[tgambill]

absolutely..........

[tgambill]

long read, starts at page 1 or 2...the preface is long and boring....one can scan to get the idea.




http://microfinancegateway.org/files/22482_14.doc


"on the role of Diaspora communities in reducing poverty in their home countries. This is a narrower focus than the more common question of the links between migration and development, or indeed the role of Diaspora in development. Migration does not always result in the long-term dispersal of a people; some migrants leave their home countries only temporarily, or assimilate into countries of settlement so completely that they lose their distinctive identity and ties to their homelands. And while poverty reduction is assumed to be one of the benefits of development, the relationship is far from linear. In other words, migration does not always result in the formation of a Diaspora community; and development does not always lead to poverty reduction, at least in the short-to-medium term. This paper analyzes the impact of established Diaspora on lifting people in their traditional homelands out of poverty, and identifies ways in which policy interventions, especially from donors of official development assistance, might strengthen that impact. In a few cases, the actions of Diaspora are perverse, and contribute to perpetuating poverty. In such cases, the aim of donor governments is to prevent or at least mitigate such actions."

[flaglady47]

These are a people who still practice blood feuds for crying out loud--and you're going to tell me they are some kind of superior cosmopolitans?!?! Gimmee a friggin' break!!!!

I believe you sent this response to the wrong person. I'm sure you meant to send it to the guy I've been debating with, not me, as I have the same opinion as you do. You better reread the series of comments to know whom you should be saying this to, and it's not me. Try again.

[zagor-te-nej]

Yes, let’s talk about history. It does not matter what time-period, or occupying force you want to choose. For most of its written history Bosnia was defined as a Serb land. From Roman Servitium (Serbinon, Serbinum, Seruitio, Servitii, Serbitium), present-day city of Gradiska in north of Republic of Srpska to censuses done by Ottoman Turks, Austria or Kingdom of Yugoslavia Serbs were only or majority of Bosnian population. First time ever muslim became majority in former Bosnia is after WWII. Care to venture a guess as to why and how that happened?

Bosnia as Serb land and Serb as majority of Bosnian population is point on which number of different and reliable sources agrees. Frankish historian, Byzantium Imperator, Roman pope, neighboring states, foreign powers ... - you name it - they all describe Bosnia as a Serbian state, populated by Serbs. Moreover, this is how Bosnians and their kings view themselves. Only ethnic or national name in the title of Stefan Tvrtko I is Serbs. He was crowned in Milesevo monastery were earthy remains of principal Serb saint - St. Sava - were buried. One of Tvrtko's predecessors, King Ostoja writes to Dubrovnik and promise to uphold and reaffirmed to their merchants "privileges given to you by my grandfathers - Serb kings". Herzegovina is Dukedom of St. Sava, and so on, and so forth.

As you can see, all this “aggression” nonsense or how Serbs invaded Bosnia is garbage talk designed to promote jihad, fulfill war aims of Bin Laden and his good pal Alija Izetbegovic and artificially create excuses for stealing what is in essence Serb private property.

Second point: CIA numbers you quoted are not reliable at all, these are just estimates. Nobody can tell you with certainty ethnic composition of Bosnia. Ten years after war stopped Bosniak muslim still refuse to organize census. Reason - census will bury all those fantasies and lies about hundreds of thousands dead muslim.

Third point: muslim-Croat referendum was illegal according to Bosnian constitution that was valid at that time. Serbs recognized muslim-Croat plan to finish what they tried to do 1941 and objected to becoming national minority in their own land - so secession was illegal.

Next time do your research – do not blindly cut and paste. That way maybe you will start understanding why Serbs refuse to live with those who slaughtered them.