Posted on 02/25/2006 6:02:52 PM PST by blam
In WW2 they signed a mutual non-aggression treaty with Hitler and remained Germany's number one trading partner (supplying over 90% of the chromium needed to run the war machine - in spite of continuous pleas from FDR & Churchill). When the writing was on the wall they declared war on Germany in February 1945. They did this to position themselves as charter members of the UN (only those countries that were at war against the Axis qualified).
In 1950 the USSR was threatening them. They needed in to NATO but Europe didn't want them. They bought their way in by sending a 5,000 man brigade to Korea. They stayed our nominal ally until after the USSR ceased to be a threat.
Now turkey needs access to the EU. In March 2003, in order to curry favor and a favorable decision from Germany and France, they shut the door to our 4ID at the last minute, forcing us to invade Iraq with no northern force.
Turkey is 98% plus muslim. It is against the law to start a Christian church or even give somebody a Bible. The gov't has shut down both existing churches and Christian radio stations.
The turks who propagandized here tried to deny all this and villified any poster who challenged them. A Turk (living in America) actually stated that if push came to shove he would take up arms with the muzzies against the US and would teach his American born sons the same.
Actually, the Turks were pretty good allies for many years. But that changed with the Iraq war. My own theory is that Chirac subverted them, probably promising them easy entry into the EU if they refused to let us use their territory for the invasion.
I remember arguing with Freeper a_Turk on those threads. The Turks not only refused us passage, they strung us along and stabbed us in the back, keeping one of our key units out of the opening of the war. They also prevented us from establishing a northern front, which is one reason why we are having so much trouble in the Sunni Triangle. Because we never had a chance to kill those guys in the war.
I still haven't given up entirely, but it's evident that the Generals don't dare clamp down on the Muslim fanatics the way they used to. Turkey will be unreliable, probably, as long as this ferment in the Muslim world continues--which may be a very long time indeed.
There were French resisters and there were many, many French collaborators -- important and powerful people, not just the odd traitor. Many of these people sailed right through the war and emerged after the war, and on into the 60s, as power players among the French elite. I believe that there is a historical consensus that the French, after their military collapse, settled into a rather easy accommodation with the Nazis. Overall, they were quite efficient in rounding up Jews and turning them over for deportation. The French have never fully come to terms with this history, but it is undeniable.
btw, I am not a French basher (although sometimes I enjoy a bit of French baiting). I've made France, her history, language, and culture something of a hobby, by which I do not mean to claim any expert level of knowledge. I admire many things about France and French culture. But there are a lot of ugly chapters in the book of French history. The French are damn sure not in the business of making nice to America, and I have no reluctance to call them out for their own failings.
I just thought your reaction to today's demonstration was a bit too warm and cozy. Like the Germans, they have some guilt to drive away. Demonstrations make for a cheap cleansing of the soul...not to say that they aren't sincere but a demonstration is just a demonstration. It remains worth remembering who was where when the rubber met the road.
(P.S. I am not Jewish and sometimes find fault with sentiments and movements which seem to me to be animated by specifically Jewish sentiments. As to the Holocaust, we -- all good men and women -- we are all Jews.)
"The Turks not only refused us passage, they strung us along and stabbed us in the back, keeping one of our key units out of the opening of the war. They also prevented us from establishing a northern front, which is one reason why we are having so much trouble in the Sunni Triangle. Because we never had a chance to kill those guys in the war."
I remember it well. In addition to not having the northern front, we lost access to one quarter for troops in the war itself because of their action. That could have led to war defeat in the whole conflict.
I remember having a discussion with a pretty knowledgeable guy on Strategy Page, an ex-military guy who now has some role in the US intelligence community, who seemed to think the Turks really did constrict our troops because we didn't get final UN approval for the invasion.
In my mind, that leaves open the possibility that someone in our government assured them, before US troops were committed, that we would not invade without final UN approval. Aside from the US State Department, which is practically entirely filled with traitors, I can't imagine where that idea would've come from.
"Turkey is 98% plus muslim. It is against the law to start a Christian church or even give somebody a Bible. The gov't has shut down both existing churches and Christian radio stations."
thanks for all the good info. it dovetails nicely with what I know.
but it is also true that Islam was heavily suppressed by Atatürk, is that not so? and in fact, this guy who is currently President was jailed a few years ago for a violent Islamacists poem. Right? so it appears that there really has been a pretty big change recently, with regard to Islam.
I take your point on the shallowness of their "alliance".
I believe the EU will definitely reject them from any kind of membership. the EU wants to commit suicide---but not that rapidly. This rejection will send Turkey bouncing fully into the Muslim world pretty hard.
"The Left in this country is in complete disarray without any believeable or useful ideas. Elsewhere, they're not doing much better."
Hardly true. Venezuela is in the process of going communist. Mexico may elect a very leftist (practically communist) president soon. Brazil already has one.
The EU is heavily socialistic.
The Left in America has plenty of ideas---they just can't talk about them in public because they all have to do with destroying our society in one way or another, such as homosexuality, socialism, pacifism, etc. Nonetheless, the Left in America controls our educational system, K through Ph.D., the mainstream media, the Democratic Party, the State Department, and as far as I'm concerned the whole lot of them are largely controlled by Russia.
True, the Russian leaders no longer believe in Leftist ideology, but they are essentially KGB and continue to hold the puppet strings of the worldwide organized left (WHOL) formerly known as International Communism.
Pinging you to my #123 on this thread....wish I had seen this post of yours and added you to the address line.
(I am not trying to add to your discomfort in the present climate of hostility to the French but am genuinely interested in how you will react to my post. Cheers.)
When I speak of French culture I am speaking of France from Clovis to about the time of the Rennaisance. As to ugly chapters in the history of coutries, haven't found a country yet that doesn't have them.
Having said that I am not a French defender either. On an individual level I have met and admire a number of French people, and in the few dealings I have had with the French up close (in their own country) I found them to be very polite. However, we were a group of college singers on a trip organized by a Jesuit priest who had many friends in the Catholic world that still existed back in the 1970s.
Recent spewings from the likes of Villepin and Chirac are certainly frustrating but not unexpected from a socialist government.
Ooops, almost forgot. My real love is French Romantic and Impressionistic Music, especially the Art Songs. And, the Gregorian Chant as interpreted by the monks of Solesmes in the 50, 60s and 70s.
Ataturk did not 'surpress' islam. He did modernize turkey and move it away from being a caliphate...but that is not the same thing as surpressing the religion. It is the military that has kept turkey from descending into a sharia-law country since his death.
In Europe, socialism is popular but under heavy pressure. They'll have to modify it to bring it into line with reality. Some of the things they come up with may be useful to us, since we too must make adjustments. Europeans are not our enemies because of it. I have no problem with them.
You're characterization of the power of the Left in America is off the deep end. Their control of our educational system is under serious challange. Ditto mainstream media. Homosexuality and pacificm will always exist regardless of the system. The Democratic party is a perfect example of the disarray I'm talking about.
Russia is controlled by KGB but that's not the problem. It's very close to disintegration. If it fails Muslims will gain additional power.
But the main thing, for most people, is the choral music, which Amazon says, "bridges the baroque and modern eras in a collection of mostly Latin choruses and chants, a skillful, often haunting fusion that also netted Coulais' compelling score BAFTA and Cesar Awards in Britain and his native France, respectively. "
I just watched the DVD on Saturday (Netflix) and found it very pleasant (definitely no car crashes, karate chops, super heros, rap soundtrack, etc.) but was not quite as enthusiastic as, apparently, all of France was. I enjoyed it, though. Surely, you would. There truly was one young rapscallion there who did sing like lark!
I have looked back at this thread and also read back a ways in your history.
I see that I was wrong to attribute to you a motive to undercut the U.S. I was wrong, and I was over-the-top. I apologize.
I see that you are a fastidous corrector of historical error, an enterprise that I generally support. (I certainly agreed with you in the What's-the-harm-in-making-up-Tocqueville-quotes thread, among others.)
However, I have no patience with raking through America's historical sins in the same coversation as when serious evil in the here-and-now needs to be confronted. Usually, this drift back into historical sins of America is for the purpose that I wrongly attributed to you -- to establish the moral equivalence between some recent barbarity and America's historical role in the world.
My error and quick temper is not in any way expunged by now quibbling with you over nuances. But I can not pretend now to be entirely reconcilled with your posture in this. Correcting the record is important, at times, but, at other times, it can be a prideful insistence on the flawlessness of one's knowledge and understanding. You apparently are a conservative (who has put up some thoughtful post, IMO) but there is a quality of baiting your fellowship here when you feel the need dwell on what "is not a lie" in some piece of hate-filled bile. Hitler built the autobahns, so they say, but I wouldn't want to be the one always insisting on giving that fact prominence in an assessment of the man, as true as it may be.
I don't know why you call yourself LIBERALlarry, maybe a rejection of the twisting of that word that our side has done and to remind us of the honorable (as in "liberal democracies") history of the word. I don't know. Perhaps you have a temperment like a lot of intellectuals do (and that got Bill Bennett into trouble recently) in which you like to show a little bit of edge but then it turns out only to be a didactic device. When I saw a poster caller himself LIBERALlarry and eager to defend the historical correctness of an indictment against America which was being used to stir the pot of Muslim rage that threatens a war of civilizations, well, I bit.
My bad. I should have been more careful.
(Pinging a few others who were active in the thread so that my mea culpa is suitably public)
It's alright if savages kill Jews at a wedding.
That's alright. To cover that over, the barbarians make a film about Americans attacking a wedding.
LiberalLarry is one of those long-time liberals who has survived the zotting process. That suggests that he practices a degree of temperance and understanding.
"My bad. I should have been more careful."
I can remember who you are but I don't like this guy you're apologizing to, so I'm on your side. ;)
Right now I'm arguing over at what I consider one of the classier Left-Wing sites; TPM cafe. They're not stupid or vulgar like the DUers, but they seem no better at admitting error. Perhaps it's my fault - I am truly outraged by many of their positions and make no attempt to hide my disgust - but still...
But I can not pretend now to be entirely reconcilled with your posture in this.
I have no problem with people who disagree with me, or find my positions horrid or disgusting, or who react with fury and anger. Just so long as it's me and my positions, not some straw man. :)
I don't know why you call yourself LIBERALlarry
I should have called myself Classicalliberallarry...Teddy Roosevelt is my man. My excuse is that I do like to be blunt and stir things up in political discussion (you got this one right). I like to think I bring it helps to define the issues...but maybe I'm just a jerk. :)
Check.
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