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Illegal Search and Seizures. Fourth Amendment
vanity...question ^ | n/a/ | n/a/

Posted on 02/02/2006 6:14:17 AM PST by television is just wrong

Went into Kmart yesterday. Purchased my item. Walked to the door and a clerk wanted to go through my bag. Her position is called 'loss prevention'

Is This Illegal Search and seizure??? When I have purchased something, it is paid for put in a bag, is it not considered then my personal property? Then why am I subject to having that purchase inspected upon leaving the store???

this practice is expanding. It started at Costco, many years ago, and now it is at many discount stores. Is this actually illegal search and seizure? Do I have a right to refuse to let them look at what are now my belongings???


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 5fingerdisc; costco; fourthamendment; illegalsearch; kmart; lightenupfrancis; lossprevention; pilfering; quityerwhining; searchwarrant; shopkeepersprivilege; stealing; target; walmart
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To: television is just wrong

Walmart employees recently chased down and killed a man in their parking lot claiming that he had stolen something from the store. Sooner or later we'll find out if there are any repercussions. Maybe criminal charges, certainly civil action.


81 posted on 02/02/2006 10:34:08 AM PST by FreePaul
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To: television is just wrong

I'm not an Attorney, however I think ownership starts after you leave the store, for anything you didn't bring with you upon entering.

That is the reason shoplifters are stopped "after" they walk out the door.


82 posted on 02/02/2006 10:52:42 AM PST by Beagle8U (An "Earth First" kinda guy ( when we finish logging here, we'll start on the other planets.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
WalMart cannot go to your house and search, if you are in WalMart's house they can search.

Show me a law that says they are allowed to search me. I can not search people just because they are on my property so why should they be able to. They can of course declare me PNG.

When approached by someone in Loss Prevention my first response is always curt "Request Denied" and I keep walking. Most of them are clueless enough to not know what to do next.
83 posted on 02/02/2006 11:09:24 AM PST by Starwolf
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Walmart searches are not enumerated, but unreasonable searches are, -- in the 4th, as you well know.

WalMart cannot go to your house and search, if you are in WalMart's house they can search.

Read post #77 on walmarts 'right' to search unreasonably.

Oath or not, you are bound to protect & defend our Constitution as the Law of the Land.

As soon as the Anti-WalMart search Amendment passes, I'll defend it.

Cute.

My, how proud it must make you to claim our constitutional principles do not apply to merchants. -- Since when are merchants exempt from our rule of law?

Go to a movie theater and yell fire, see how your 1st Amendment rights apply. Or an airport and yell bomb.

Both examples are criminal acts when there are no bombs or fires. Get real.

Your posts here are typical, for instance, of those who deny that the 2nd does not apply to merchants, -- that they can ban guns from employees & customers cars. Ring a bell?

Bring cases on both to the Supreme Court and see which survives.

I'd welcome such cases and the clearing of the 'constitutional air' they would raise. -- Your anti-constitutional 'pro-merchant' position would be left with no legs to stand on.

84 posted on 02/02/2006 11:09:26 AM PST by tpaine
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To: EBH
Yep. They have to decide whether its worth it. The police have to decide whether its worth a court ordered search.

They probably would not. But count on not getting off with warning tickets for speeding anymore. :-)
85 posted on 02/02/2006 11:14:47 AM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: Starwolf

"Show me a law that says they are allowed to search me."

Look up "shopkeeper's privilege."

"They can of course declare me PNG."

From what you subsequently wrote, I'm sure you have.

"When approached by someone in Loss Prevention my first response is always curt "Request Denied" and I keep walking. Most of them are clueless enough to not know what to do next."

And the ones who do know what to do next have detained you and sent an information copy of their report to the police, and then PNG'd you out of their establishment. You probably have an extensive file with the local police department. You can reasonably expect that any police stop or police call involving you will not go well for you to begin with.


86 posted on 02/02/2006 11:18:50 AM PST by BeHoldAPaleHorse (Tagline deleted at request of moderator.)
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To: Starwolf; 1rudeboy
Show me a law that says they are allowed to search me.

Here's the deal: Your state probably (you need to check) has what is commonly called a "shopkeeper's privilege" (you should google the term if you're curious) statute, which allows employees of an establishment to ascertain if you are leaving their store without paying for their merchandise, and even allows them to detain you for a reasonable amount of time if they have a reasonable belief that you have not.

51 posted on 02/02/2006 9:24:32 AM CST by 1rudeboy

87 posted on 02/02/2006 11:19:03 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Beagle8U

As long as someone is inside the store, it may be difficult to prove theft or intent of theft. However, once a customer leaves a store in possession of store merchandize he didn't pay for, the issue of intent becomes more provable.


88 posted on 02/02/2006 11:22:46 AM PST by Enterprise (The MSM - Propaganda wing and news censorship division of the Democrat Party.)
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To: tpaine
Walmart searches are not enumerated, but unreasonable searches are, -- in the 4th, as you well know.

Yes. If you think their search is unreasonable, take action. I'm sure in some % of cases they are. In most I suspect they are reasonable.

I'd welcome such cases and the clearing of the 'constitutional air' they would raise.

Me too.

-- Your anti-constitutional 'pro-merchant' position would be left with no legs to stand on.

Anti-Constitutional? Please. Do they post a sign saying bags can be searched? Can you read the sign? If you disagree, shop elsewhere. Or call the police and your lawyer when they stop you at the door. Please let us know how it all plays out.

89 posted on 02/02/2006 11:23:23 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: television is just wrong
If I had nothing but legal purchases, I would make them call a cop or let me go. I would never submit to a search by an employee of the company.

They will then either let you go or call the cops.

If they call the cops and you're clean, lawsuit city.

90 posted on 02/02/2006 11:23:39 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: Enterprise

I think that was my point also.


91 posted on 02/02/2006 11:24:29 AM PST by Beagle8U (An "Earth First" kinda guy ( when we finish logging here, we'll start on the other planets.)
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To: tpaine
Wiz, we are all 'limited' by our Constitutional laws, and we are all bound to support & defend its basic principles, including the bill of rights.

Does that mean I can stand in the middle of WalMart all day and shout "Submit Unto God and Be Saved" at everyone while they shop, because I have freedom of speech?

92 posted on 02/02/2006 11:31:59 AM PST by wizardoz
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Walmart searches are not enumerated, but unreasonable searches are, -- in the 4th, as you well know.

Yes. If you think their search is unreasonable, take action. I'm sure in some % of cases they are. In most I suspect they are reasonable.

Thank you for conceding that 'unreasonable searches' by merchants are actionable under our Constitution.

Your posts here are typical, for instance, of those who deny that the 2nd does not apply to merchants, -- that they can ban guns from employees & customers cars.
I'd welcome such cases and the clearing of the 'constitutional air' they would raise.

Me too.

-- Your anti-constitutional 'pro-merchant' position would be left with no legs to stand on.

Anti-Constitutional? Please.

You want merchants to have an unrestricted power to search? -- That's anti-constitutional.

Do they post a sign saying bags can be searched? Can you read the sign? If you disagree, shop elsewhere.

And if the merchant disagrees with limits, let him open shop elsewhere. Mexico & China beckon.

Or call the police and your lawyer when they stop you at the door. Please let us know how it all plays out.

Rest assured, you will be the first to know.

93 posted on 02/02/2006 11:53:31 AM PST by tpaine
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To: wizardoz

Ask some of the pro-merchant crowd here.. They seem to be the experts on shouting nonsense.


94 posted on 02/02/2006 11:56:17 AM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
Thank you for conceding that 'unreasonable searches' by merchants are actionable under our Constitution.

Never said that unreasonable searches weren't actionable. Asking, "Can I look in your bag?" doesn't sound unreasonable. Asking to perform a body cavity search would be. Of course they might find your head.

Your posts here are typical, for instance, of those who deny that the 2nd does not apply to merchants, -- that they can ban guns from employees & customers cars.

Does the store allow you to scream your religious beliefs in the store? If not, does that violate your 1st Amendment rights? Why can't you carry a firearm on an airplane? Does that violate your 2nd Amendment rights?

Go to a movie theater and yell fire, see how your 1st Amendment rights apply. Or an airport and yell bomb.

Both examples are criminal acts when there are no bombs or fires.

You're kidding, right? You mean free speech can be a crime? That violates my 1st Amendment rights.

Rest assured, you will be the first to know.

Constitutional scholars worldwide breathlessly await your Supreme Court date.

95 posted on 02/02/2006 12:07:54 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Toddster:

Why can't you carry a firearm on an airplane? Does that violate your 2nd Amendment rights?

Yes, it does. But feel free to tell us why it doesn't, and why you and the brady bunch are so afraid of guns.

Go to a movie theater and yell fire, see how your 1st Amendment rights apply. Or an airport and yell bomb.

Both examples are criminal acts when there are no bombs or fires.

You're kidding, right? You mean free speech can be a crime? That violates my 1st Amendment rights.

Whatever. -- Please, dig yourself deeper on the 2nd..

96 posted on 02/02/2006 12:23:34 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
Yes, it does. But feel free to tell us why it doesn't, and why you and the brady bunch are so afraid of guns.

How can a law or rule limit your Constitutional rights?

Both examples are criminal acts when there are no bombs or fires.

Explain how free speech (1st Amendment) can be a criminal act.

97 posted on 02/02/2006 12:25:59 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Beagle8U

OK


98 posted on 02/02/2006 12:35:47 PM PST by Enterprise (The MSM - Propaganda wing and news censorship division of the Democrat Party.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Toddster:

Why can't you carry a firearm on an airplane? Does that violate your 2nd Amendment rights?

Yes, it does. But feel free to tell us why it doesn't, and why you and the brady bunch are so afraid of guns.

Go to a movie theater and yell fire, see how your 1st Amendment rights apply. Or an airport and yell bomb.

Both examples are criminal acts when there are no bombs or fires.

You're kidding, right? You mean free speech can be a crime? That violates my 1st Amendment rights.

Whatever. -- Please, dig yourself deeper on the 2nd..

How can a law or rule limit your Constitutional rights?

By saying you can't carry a firearm on an airplane. That violates your 2nd Amendment rights.

Explain how free speech (1st Amendment) can be a criminal act

Go to a movie theater and yell fire, when there is no fire, -- and you will be liable for any injuries in the ensuing panic.

Now, please, -- go bother someone else with your grade school type questions.

99 posted on 02/02/2006 12:39:49 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
Banning firearms on airplanes violates your 2nd Amendment rights, that's why we can all carry a gun on a plane.

Searching your bag as you walk out of WalMart violates your 4th Amendment rights, that's why you can never be searched as you leave a store. /tpaine confused logic

100 posted on 02/02/2006 12:52:11 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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