Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Bush was denied wiretaps, bypassed them (FISA Court denied them in unprecedented numbers)
UPI ^ | Dec. 27, 2005 | UPI

Posted on 12/27/2005 10:47:23 AM PST by Pragmatic_View

WASHINGTON, Dec. 26 (UPI) -- U.S. President George Bush decided to skip seeking warrants for international wiretaps because the court was challenging him at an unprecedented rate.

A review of Justice Department reports to Congress by Hearst newspapers shows the 26-year-old Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court modified more wiretap requests from the Bush administration than the four previous presidential administrations combined.

The 11-judge court that authorizes FISA wiretaps modified only two search warrant orders out of the 13,102 applications approved over the first 22 years of the court's operation.

But since 2001, the judges have modified 179 of the 5,645 requests for surveillance by the Bush administration, the report said. A total of 173 of those court-ordered "substantive modifications" took place in 2003 and 2004. And, the judges also rejected or deferred at least six requests for warrants during those two years -- the first outright rejection of a wiretap request in the court's history.


TOPICS: Extended News; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: abovethelaw; alqaeda; fisa; gwot; heroic; homelandsecurity; nsa; patriotleak; spying; terrorattack; terrorism; wiretap; wiretaps; wot
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 301-320321-340341-360 ... 561-580 next last
To: Pragmatic_View
The president HAS the authority to defend us against the enemy. It's WAR, in case you missed 9-11-01.

But he doesn't have unlimited or extra-Constitutional authority either. If the Framers wanted the President to have dictatorial powers during war they would have explictly put that in the Constitution. They didn't do that however. The Framers more than anyone understood the balance needed between the legitimate needs of government and individual liberty.

They wrote the Fifth Amendment requirement of indictment for example, even knowing that in some cases, conspirators could be tipped off by the simple fact that an investigation was occuring. They rightly believed this to be a better outcome that simply hauling people into court on flimsy evidence. Ditto for the Fourth Amendment - conspirators may be tipped off by a seach and destroy valuable evidence before the government gets to it - but the Framers thought this was a better outcome than giving the government the power to randomly enter your home.

321 posted on 12/27/2005 3:44:49 PM PST by garbanzo (Don't Let the Government Win)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 309 | View Replies]

To: Pragmatic_View
I'm not sure what exactly the point of that exchange was. Just two questions and two complete non-answers to those questions. What is that supposed to illustrate?
322 posted on 12/27/2005 3:45:03 PM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 319 | View Replies]

To: Pragmatic_View

"And do people understand what a NUKE can do to a US city and the country? "

Nuke, hell why stop there, I hear "they" are working on a modified Martian Discombobulator!! I'm scared, lets just disband congress, close the courts and hand control to the meanest looking general we can find. /sarc


323 posted on 12/27/2005 3:46:06 PM PST by ndt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 320 | View Replies]

To: ndt
I have difficulty imagining a court denying a retroactive warrant in such a case. So why bypass such a system?

Easy. You have two competing elements here that aren't designed to work with each other.

Judges, especially FISA judges, are not rubber stamps. They want to see probable cause, and are sticklers for detail. The process to put something before a FISA judge is very strict, time consuming, and will weed out anything that won't get approved.

Intelligence analysts, on the other hand, are in a perpetual race against the clock. Their targets are elusive, and evasive. They rarely leave enough of a footprint to be deemed 'probable cause'. Through pattern analysis a smart analyst can find needles in the haystack, but that requires being allowed to look.

To that end, the analysts don't care about prosecuting these guys, just stopping attacks. They only needs a quick peek. The law enforcement types might want to build a case, get a warrant, do some long term surveillance, and eventually prosecute. They may even determine that the analyst was wrong, and drop the case entirely.

The point is that law enforcement tools are not agile enough to defeat a military opponent. Nor should they be. We shouldn't expect the FISA judges to rubber stamp any request that gets sent their way, since that would allow FAR more than the quick peek the analysts need. On the other hand, letting the intelligence side of the house have some flexibility to screen for potential threats should be seen for what it is: a sensible precaution against a known foreign adversary that has advanced into our territory, and who hides behind laws that weren't designed to protect him.

324 posted on 12/27/2005 3:46:28 PM PST by Steel Wolf (If the Founders had wanted the President to be spying on our phone calls, they would have said so!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 302 | View Replies]

To: Pragmatic_View

Thank God! that George W. Bush was elected and re-elected. I sure wouldn't want to be living in any major parasite nest, er, city, if a scumbag Democrat gets elected. Whew!

On the other hand, if a scumbag Democrat gets elected, it will mainly be thanks to the voters of the major parasite nests, er, cities. In which case they can get what they deserve.

(As long as the winds don't bring too much fallout my way.)


325 posted on 12/27/2005 3:48:59 PM PST by Lancey Howard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pragmatic_View
I guess you don't think we should prevent it, if the only way is by wiretapping conversations of terrorists inside the US, right?

Are there any lines that you would draw? Concentration camps for Arab muslims in the US? Genocide? Even if that were the only way to prevent a nuke attack? Looking at the cases of the London subway shooting and the Miami plane shooting, do you think that the government gets it right all the time? That everyone that the administration labels a terrorist is one? Is this situation made better or worse by lack of political or judicial oversight?

326 posted on 12/27/2005 3:50:04 PM PST by garbanzo (Don't Let the Government Win)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 320 | View Replies]

To: BARLF; Arizona Carolyn

Freeper Arizona Carolyn found this:

Judge Lamberth, who sits on the FISA court, has ties to islamic extremists and rejected many FBI warrant requests, prior to 9/11.

FBI whistleblowers specifically mentioned him to Attorney General Ashcroft right after 9/11.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1547743/posts?page=34#34


327 posted on 12/27/2005 3:52:02 PM PST by Peach (The Clintons pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 152 | View Replies]

To: Steel Wolf
Through pattern analysis a smart analyst can find needles in the haystack, but that requires being allowed to look.

These of course are the same analysts that concluded Iraq had stockpiles of WMD.

328 posted on 12/27/2005 3:52:26 PM PST by garbanzo (Don't Let the Government Win)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 324 | View Replies]

To: Steel Wolf
"Easy. You have two competing elements here that aren't designed to work with each other."

First, let me say that was the best laid out argument I have seen in the entire thread.

I disagree with your conclusion but only in a matter of degree not kind. I would put more weight in privacy protection and in cases that required a lower bar of proof there should be a separate process enacted through legislation, of course within the bounds of the law.
329 posted on 12/27/2005 3:55:01 PM PST by ndt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 324 | View Replies]

To: peyton randolph

Ah, chock up another consequence of the Liberal Death Wish.


330 posted on 12/27/2005 4:00:50 PM PST by victim soul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: ndt
Article 48 of the [Constitution of the Weimar Republic] gave the President power to "take all necessary steps" if "public order and security are seriously disturbed or endangered". Although this was intended as an emergency clause, it was often used before 1933 to issue decrees without the support of Parliament...For example, the Reichstag Fire Decree was issued on the basis of Article 48.

This tidbit from the article I linked to above is interesting.

331 posted on 12/27/2005 4:04:48 PM PST by garbanzo (Don't Let the Government Win)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 323 | View Replies]

To: garbanzo
The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787;

"the President is empowered to repel sudden attacks without awaiting congressional action and to make clear that the conduct of war is vested exclusively in the President."
Congress declares a war, the President executes the war and the Judiciary has no role in a war. The reason for giving exclusive authority to the President for the conduct of war was to prevent 500+ bureaucrats from micromanaging the war.
332 posted on 12/27/2005 4:09:40 PM PST by Wasanother (Terrorist come in many forms but all are RATS.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 321 | View Replies]

To: Peach

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, this gives me cold chills.
I remember Judge Lamberth from the clinton scandal's.

Thanks Peach for the link. Bookmarked for closer study.


333 posted on 12/27/2005 4:13:18 PM PST by BARLF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 327 | View Replies]

To: Wasanother

This isn't a conventional war - there is no army to defeat, no enemy capital to overrun. Secondly, the Framers did not give the President dictatorial powers - only the power over the use of the military in conduct of the war as is explictly stated in the Constitution. And the framers again were people who didn't even want a standing army. He has no authority to spy on private citizens contrary to judicial oversight. He cannot write laws without Congress. He can, with the consent of Congress, suspend habeus corpus.


334 posted on 12/27/2005 4:18:01 PM PST by garbanzo (Don't Let the Government Win)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 332 | View Replies]

To: Pragmatic_View
President George Bush decided to skip seeking warrants for international wiretaps because the court was challenging him at an unprecedented rate. ...snip.... But since 2001, the judges have modified 179 of the 5,645 requests for surveillance by the Bush administration, the report said.

This makes no sense - has the MSM lost its collective mind? Can they no longer tell the truth at all? They 1st line is contradicted in the 3rd paragraph.

335 posted on 12/27/2005 4:27:20 PM PST by p23185 (Why isn't attempting to take down a sitting Pres & his Admin considered Sedition?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dog
What is amazing is the media thinks this is going to hurt Bush....but it won't....it just reenforces the notion he is protecting the people at all costs. This is a win-win for Bush..

Boy I sure hope you are correct, because the loony left is getting shriller every day.

336 posted on 12/27/2005 4:28:53 PM PST by p23185 (Why isn't attempting to take down a sitting Pres & his Admin considered Sedition?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: garbanzo

Well, you maybe right or the President maybe right but when questions arise about right or wrong we use case law and for that reason, the President is right. I don't think it's a case of the President writing the laws but a case of interpreting the laws and Constitutional Obligations.


337 posted on 12/27/2005 4:31:41 PM PST by Wasanother (Terrorist come in many forms but all are RATS.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 334 | View Replies]

To: Pragmatic_View
the President HAS the authority in the first place, he doesn't need to go through FISA.

From everything I have read on this subject, you are sooooo correct. If nothing else is operative, he has the Constitutional authority as Commander In Chief to do whatever is necessary to wage a war. Thought that is what we were doing after 911? Didn't Bush throw out the old Clintoon model of "police action" and actually wage a war on terror?

338 posted on 12/27/2005 4:32:03 PM PST by p23185 (Why isn't attempting to take down a sitting Pres & his Admin considered Sedition?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 306 | View Replies]

To: BARLF

You're welcome. Try to remember to ping me if you see anything more about this matter. Thanks!


339 posted on 12/27/2005 4:40:12 PM PST by Peach (The Clintons pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 333 | View Replies]

To: ndt

One would bypass such a system if one had reason to believe that one or more of the judges were passing information to enemies of this country.


340 posted on 12/27/2005 4:41:20 PM PST by Miss Marple (Lord, please look after Mozart Lover's son and keep him strong.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 302 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 301-320321-340341-360 ... 561-580 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson