Was Arthur a king or just a battle commander?

King Arthur: A Man for the Ages ^ | undated | David White

[Sam Cree]

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[rintense]

I find the theory that Arthur was a soldier of Rome a very intriguing one.

[reformed_democrat]

...and "Knight" would be my dream job...

My husband is a Knight in Shining Armor. I'll see if his branch office is accepting applicants.

[Gondring]

So... Is there really a magic sword out there, as the myths might tell us? Or perhaps are some myths merely fiction, or perhaps a poor attempt to explain some mystery?

Perhaps sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and a star just a star?

[No Truce With Kings]

"I find the theory that Arthur was a soldier of Rome a very intriguing one."

He almost certainly was Roman -- or at least Brittano-Roman. Britain had become a successful Roman provence by the time of Arthur. He was most likely a member of the local gentry -- probably British or one who thought of himself as British -- and also thought of himself as Roman. When the Romans pulled out of Brittania many such remained behind, and attempted to protect their civilization from the invading hordes.

The Arthurian "invasion" of Rome in Monmouth is equally almost certainly a misrembered memory of Roman generals who were stationed in Britain who took their legions south to claim the Imperial Purple. Emperor Constantine (St. Constantine in the Orthodox Church) was the son of one such general and Arthur's heir in Monmouth was . . . Constantine.

[MissEdie]

"My husband is a Knight in Shining Armor"

He must be related to mine! :0)

[Knitting A Conundrum]

Romanized Briton is probably right on...

Wonder if Arthur going to Rome was stolen from the legend of Maxen.

Back in the day (up to abou 1990), this stuff was my passion.

I thought Geoffrey Ashe had a pretty good case, although I am far from being up on the latest.

And when you think King, don't think of medieval kings. Think of guys that were more than tribal chieftans, but not the guys we will see later.

And I suspect even the early redactions are several legends conflated. Untangling the source from the added ins is the game.

[expatpat]

The term "King" was used more loosely and parochially in those days. For example, Ireland had at least 4 kings at the same time.

[mozarky2]

Well, then, sign up for a course at your local "Knight" school!

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks for the pings.

Regarding the magic sword, I rather doubt it. I do wonder about the magic cauldron found in the Mabinogeon, though. ;')

Somewhere around here there's at least one past topic (2004, or earlier) in the GGG catalog about the various possible Arthurs. Every few years someone comes up with a different one. The trappings of the legend probably came from other, earlier tales (much as is generally held — not by me — to be the case for Homer's Iliad) of various origins, times, and characters. The French had a lot of influence over the Arthur story; however, the historical person is referenced, just not by name, by I think it was Gildas (he seems to have had a grudge against Arthur).

The name, Arthur, it has been suggested, is a compound of Arth and Ursa (Arthursa); both mean "bear" in Welsh and Latin, respectively. This may be even more appropriate just because the historical figure may be a composite of several medieval (or even pre-Roman) heroes, irrespective of the bits and pieces of unrelated lore plastered over him.

Camulodunum the Roman town in Britain was a Latin transliteration of a tribal name of some sort, and appears to have given us the name "Camelot" (again, that's from the period of French development of the story). One book about the hunt for an historical Arthur puts his capital in Viroconium, which is perhaps more likely a location than most other suggestions.

The Wansdyke apparently postdates Roman occupation, and was one of several "Dark Age" walls. That has been attributed to Arthur or his purported family. Wat's Dyke, in Wales, was not constructed in response to Offa's Dyke, but is in fact pre-Roman. I think the Wansdyke is held to postdate the Romans because part of it was laid down right over a Roman road.

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[nopardons]

I still have the book...what would you like posted from it?

[nopardons]

bttt

[infidel29]

I don't know, I remember a little of it, there was a good bit about Arthur wasn't there?

I wish I had it more for reference and posterity. I very much enjoy medieval history... medieval fantasy more like it, but the historical part is cool too.

[Ciexyz]

Clive Owen's "King Arthur" was a decent movie, but I wish it had a bigger budget. Ioan Gruffudd ("Horatio Hornblower", "Magnificent Four") was good as Lancelot.

[SunkenCiv]

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King Arthur: The True Story by Graham Phillips and Martin Keatman

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[ApplegateRanch]

A conclusion can probably not be made on this subject because the evidence is just too sketchy. Arthur's being a battle commander is somewhat easier to prove, but again we suffer from too little reliable information.

Well, just damn him for not having a competent amanuensis!

[nopardons]

Many thanks for the book suggestion; I don't have that one.

Now I have to add that one to my collection of books about King Arthur. :-)

[Peanut Gallery]

thanks for the ping!

BTW, watched the History Channel last night. They aired a show on the Crusades. It was very interesting, however, I cannot watch part two of it tonight.

[Peanut Gallery]

So... Is there really a magic sword out there, as the myths might tell us? Or perhaps are some myths merely fiction, or perhaps a poor attempt to explain some mystery?

Well there was the sword that destroyed Sauron by merely cutting off his hand (and his precious ring). Oh, you mean really as in real. Bah.

Seriously, Arthur's sword may have been said to be magic because of the deeds he achieved using it. So, was there a sword? Most certainly, granting that Arthur was probably a Roman soldier. Was it magic? Not hardly. Well made more likely (by the elves).

[RayBob]

No, Dangus, not a hamster, but rather a poorly drawn aardvark.