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Witness: 'Intelligent Design' doesn't qualify as science [Day 4 of trial in Dover, PA]
Sioux City Journal ^ | 29 September 2005 | Staff

Posted on 09/29/2005 3:36:00 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) -- The concept of "intelligent design" is a form of creationism and is not based on scientific method, a professor testified Wednesday in a trial over whether the idea should be taught in public schools.

Robert T. Pennock, a professor of science and philosophy at Michigan State University, testified on behalf of families who sued the Dover Area School District. He said supporters of intelligent design don't offer evidence to support their idea.

"As scientists go about their business, they follow a method," Pennock said. "Intelligent design wants to reject that and so it doesn't really fall within the purview of science."

Pennock said intelligent design does not belong in a science class, but added that it could possibly be addressed in other types of courses.

In October 2004, the Dover school board voted 6-3 to require teachers to read a brief statement about intelligent design to students before classes on evolution. The statement says Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection is "not a fact" and has inexplicable "gaps," and refers students to an intelligent-design textbook for more information.

Proponents of intelligent design argue that life on Earth was the product of an unidentified intelligent force, and that natural selection cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms.

Eight families are trying to have intelligent design removed from the curriculum, arguing that it violates the constitutional separation of church and state. They say it promotes the Bible's view of creation.

Meanwhile, a lawyer for two newspaper reporters said Wednesday the presiding judge has agreed to limit questioning of the reporters, averting a legal showdown over having them testify in the case.

Both reporters wrote stories that said board members mentioned creationism as they discussed the intelligent design issue. Board members have denied that.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III agreed that the reporters would only have to verify the content of their stories -- and not answer questions about unpublished material, possible bias or the use of any confidential sources.

"They're testifying only as to what they wrote," said Niles Benn, attorney for The York Dispatch and the York Daily Record/Sunday News, the papers that employed the two freelancers.

The reporters were subpoenaed but declined to give depositions Tuesday, citing their First Amendment rights. A lawyer for the school board had said he planned to seek contempt citations against the two.

The judge's order clears the way for the reporters to provide depositions and testify Oct. 6.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; beatingadeadhorse; crevolist; crevorepublic; dover; enoughalready; evolution; itsbeendone; onetrickpony; played; scienceeducation
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To: 11th Commandment

It is obvious to me that the majority of the people on this thread who oppose ID have not bothered to read any of the literature that is currently available. They buy into what the MSM says, and let that suffice. They would not do that on any other topic than this...amazing.


361 posted on 09/29/2005 6:20:18 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (The radical secularization of America is happening)
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To: King Prout
I never date clams. I've had a nice Italian dinner or two or three with Linguine a la Vongole, but that's as far as I go with bivalve molluscs in public.

The FSM completely blesses such practices as his noodly appendages are all over the place therein.

OK, you caught me. Since I moved back to WV, the closest Italian place features "Spaghetti, white clam sauce." Doesn't sound very exotic, but it's good.

362 posted on 09/29/2005 6:26:57 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: LiteKeeper
It is obvious to me that the majority of the people on this thread who oppose ID have not bothered to read any of the literature that is currently available. They buy into what the MSM says, and let that suffice.

This isn't "pot ... kettle ... black." This is "mote ... log ... own eye." IOW, pure projection.

363 posted on 09/29/2005 6:28:23 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro

If you are right, tell me the basic arguments of the ID position...please provide as much detail as possible.


364 posted on 09/29/2005 6:32:54 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (The radical secularization of America is happening)
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To: Coyoteman

Oh, please. He spent at least as much time ignoring it as you did composing it.


365 posted on 09/29/2005 6:41:12 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: LiteKeeper
Gauntlet accepted. Here are the basic arguments, satire held as far in check as humanly possible. Feeling lazy, I will abstain from going into as much detail as I could or I'd be in stealth cretin mode all night.

  1. Evolution cannot explain irreducible complexity, defined as systems which cannot suffer the removal or disablement of a single component without loss of function.
  2. Evolution cannot explain Complex Specified Information, defined as something so obviously designed that it just has to have been designed. We can tell this by objective criteria which we have not however thus far specified without luxurious recourse to the fallacy of equivocation.
  3. Evolution cannot explain the obvious fine tuning of the universe to accomodate life. Nor does it deal with how mud puddles are always just exactly the right shape to fit in the holes without sticking up out of the ground.
Now, tell me the theory of evolution and give a quick precis of the evidence for it.
366 posted on 09/29/2005 6:41:26 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: MineralMan

A former Governor of the Great State of (clap clap clap clap) Texas supposedly said: "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"


367 posted on 09/29/2005 6:43:44 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
That Ann Richards, what a card she was!
368 posted on 09/29/2005 6:45:02 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Gumlegs

ouchies.
that stung.


369 posted on 09/29/2005 6:45:54 PM PDT by King Prout (19sep05 - I want at least 2 Saiga-12 shotguns. If you have leads, let me know)
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To: All
That list wasn't a mistake, BTW. Yes, ID is the only theory in history composed entirely of screeches that another theory somehow can't be right.
370 posted on 09/29/2005 6:46:23 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Nathan Zachary
There are NO actual real fossils found that show evidence of evolution, only drawings of a theory which has yet to be proved.

And NO actual real motion picture frames show evidence of motion. Ha! We just disproved the movies!

371 posted on 09/29/2005 6:49:27 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: VadeRetro
Some posts to this thread need a blue filter.
372 posted on 09/29/2005 6:55:19 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: VadeRetro

Nice try, but wrong. Your #1 is backwards; #2 doesn't come close; #3 is really on the edge, but not a major factor. Sorry, you obviously are more interested in satire than truth.


373 posted on 09/29/2005 7:02:39 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (The radical secularization of America is happening)
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To: Dimensio; doc30; PatrickHenry; balrog666; Vive ut Vivas
"A common but dangerous approach to the study of any body of unfamiliar material is to begin by adopting a definition of terminology, either one's own or another's, and to apply this terminology to one's findings even if the two are not compatible."

- William Hays

Hays was discussing the problem of "The Troping Hypothesis."

I thought I'd post this again.

374 posted on 09/29/2005 7:06:14 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: LiteKeeper
Your #1 is backwards.

Needs a bit of analysis, there. How so? That one I refrained from satire, totally.

#2 doesn't come close.

Unsupported assertion. It's Dembski on truth serum.

#3 is really on the edge, but not a major factor.

No, that one's not a biggie. But that's about all the quivvers in the ID arrow.

OK, if you include Johnson and Wells, they drag in a bunch of recycled creationist stuff, trying hard to throw out all the YEC material but occasionally forgetting. One or the other (Johnson?) attacks radiometric dating, for instance. Why do that if you accept the age of the Earth?

The expanded version could thus include:

  1. There are no transitional fossils (recycled YECism)
  2. The Second Law of Thermo forbids evolution (recycled YECism)
  3. Textbooks still show pictures of Haeckel's discredited drawings (you got it by now, right?)
  4. Evolution cannot explain the Cambrian Explosion (yada yada)
In the earlier post, I was listing all of the ID writers's original contributions to western civilization. Except that ID was first noticed by Muller, CSI was first noticed by Paley, etc.

I notice you didn't answer my counter-challenge. A chance to demonstrate your acumen, and you delined?

375 posted on 09/29/2005 7:16:33 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Gumlegs
Some posts to this thread need a blue filter.

Old posters never die. At least, not until they really DO die.

376 posted on 09/29/2005 7:18:25 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: RadioAstronomer
Here ya go - "infinite wire" :-)

Now I am reminded why I never considered majoring in physics. The calculus! All of those letters that you have to write on a crib sheet so you can remember what they mean when you take the exam! Arggh! The most important physical concept I ever learned was "run to red."

(That describes the behavior of biological molecules in an electric field, and has the advantage of saving me the trouble of figuring out which is the positive wire and which is the negative every time I want to electrophoresis something.)

(All the electrophoresis boxes have color coded contacts anyway, so you always plug in the wires correctly. Gee, biologists are dumb!)

Actually, there are a lot of other physical concepts that come into my work. We life scientists don't tend to think of them as physics, though. And most of us don't do calculus.

377 posted on 09/29/2005 7:20:34 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: VadeRetro

You still have not gotten the ID position correct - why should I answer your challenge when you have yet to answer mine? Try focusing on your first bullet, but try to get it right this time.


378 posted on 09/29/2005 7:22:07 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (The radical secularization of America is happening)
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To: VadeRetro

Somewhere, taps is playing.


379 posted on 09/29/2005 7:22:35 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: LiteKeeper
Try explaining yourself. Your assertion remains unsupported.

You are called. You are challenged. Got it? This is where you show the hand or fold.

380 posted on 09/29/2005 7:24:05 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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