[SmithL]

So far, he's hated by communists, the federal government, farmers, and most environmentalists. Not bad.

[Red Badger]

I have read that diluting gasoline with ethanol is like stretching hamburger meat by adding ground filet mignon.......

[rellimpank]

---when ethanol is used in the machinery growing the corn and in the burners of the distillation plants manufacturing it, it will have become economically feasable--

[Question_Assumptions]

If the choice is between ethanol and MBTE to oxygenate gas, I'll take the ethanol, thanks. I think the MBTE is a waste product that refineries are more than happy to get rid of but environmentally, it's nasty stuff.

[B Knotts]

By the time he left Shell, his philosophical views had changed. "I realized that society will never have enough energy," Patzek said. "We are incurable addicts. Our national policy is to satisfy the addict."

Sounds like this guy has his own agenda, which taints his conclusions.

I've heard the same sorts of claims about biodiesel, which have been shown to be untrue.

[battlegearboat]

Remaining composed and friendly does not automatically mean he is rational. I'd like to learn if he really does understand the whole process of ethanol production or was he reading a book while the industrial film was being run.

[Hendrix]

"Fuel efficiency standards need to rise."

This to me is the first place we need to start. Why should people be driving big trucks and SUVs that get 10 mpg when they could be driving full sized cars (like a camry or accord) that gets 30 mpg? I know people without kids where the husband and wife drive full sized SUVs. We could cut our consumption in half by raising fuel efficiency standards. That is a good place to start.

[Brilliant]

Patzek and David Pimentel, a Cornell scientist who had been a lone public voice against corn ethanol for more than 30 years, argued that corn ethanol did the environment more harm than good. Growing corn, fertilizing the fields, transporting it to the factories and then out to where it was needed took more energy than the resulting ethanol would ultimately generate, they said.

This is just more liberal propaganda. These two guys are not the only ones who've said this. In fact, it's pretty much common knowledge among real scientists. The media just wants you to think these guys are unique in their assessment.

[B Knotts]

There is no magic bullet to replace fossil fuels, Patzek said. He says the United States drastically needs to reduce its energy use. Fuel efficiency standards need to rise. People must commute less by living closer to work. Food should be produced locally, instead of shipped and trucked from far-away places.

Uh huh. Sounds like he's absorbed some of the "wisdom" of his former Communist masters.

[freekitty]

"So far, he's hated by communists, the federal government, farmers, and most environmentalists. Not bad."

I like this guy.

[Boundless]

Another link:
http://www.coe.berkeley.edu/labnotes/0305/patzek_print.html

"All told, he believes that the cumulative energy consumed
in corn farming and ethanol production is six times
greater than what the end product provides your car
engine in terms of power."

As with biodiesel, fuel ethanol might be a worthwhile use
of an otherwise wasted crop (e.g. pest infested and
unsuited for consumption), but I suspect the prof has a
point about the net energy budget.

[RayChuang88]

I think if America uses more ethanol as an additive to gasoline they should forget about using corn, which is not a very efficient crop to get large amounts of ethanol. How about growing really high carbohydrate count plants like sugar beets, soybeans, and jojoba beans (in the desert regions) to meet the ethanol need?

After all, Brazil gets its own ethanol for motor fuels sourced from sugar cane, which is a high-carbohydrate plant.

[Fog Nozzle]

Ethanol is reverse Alchemy, turning gold into lead.

[JoeGar]

Why do all of my vehicle owner's manuals caution against using ethanol-laced fuels?

[alloysteel]

Fuel may still be made from a corn crop WITHOUT using the grain to ferment into a form of beer, which is further concentrated by distillation.

The bulk of the rest of the plant, including the cob at the middle of the ear of corn, can all be run through a heated retort, under pressure, with temperatures of about 900º Fahrenheit, for a period of about two hours, which reduces the carbohydrates (mostly cellulose and complex sugars) into hydrocarbons and somewhat saline water. The hydrocarbons make up a fairly good grade of crude oil, which may then be further refined into various fractions, lubricating oil, Diesel oil and unleaded gasoline, as well as feedstocks for plastics and industrical chemicals.

Like the production of ethanol, the process takes a good deal of energy to get it into continuous operation, but by careful engineering, it would be possible to reclaim a major portion of the heat energy, and maintain a continous output.

The grain is still available for consumption as foodstuff, the trash from its harvest is recycled, and the agricultural enterprise becomes self-sufficient in fuel production.

[tophat9000]

Growing corn, fertilizing the fields, transporting it to the factories and then out to where it was needed took more energy than the resulting ethanol would ultimately generate, they said.

Ah if this is true wouldn't the economics of ethanol production kill it ..I mean if a producing a gallon of ethanol consumes more than a gallon of oil then oil no matter what it's price will always be cheaper that a gallon of ethanol...

[newguy357]

Shameless glorification of a pseudoscientist. His conclusions are based on skewed data and he has ties to the oil industry. Look into it--his cost assessments are based on maximum use of fertilizers (at rates used decades ago, much higher than current useage) and on minimum yield of corn (also based on decades old, worst case data). It's a bunch of crap and you should all look into it more before you start cheering for him.

[Redcloak]

[Patzek] says the United States drastically needs to reduce its energy use. Fuel efficiency standards need to rise. People must commute less by living closer to work. Food should be produced locally, instead of shipped and trucked from far-away places.

So in other words, he's for the government telling people what to drive, where to live, what jobs to hold, and what food they may buy. He's turned in to one of the Communists he once rebelled against.

[spunkets]

Patzek's right and I'm sure no one shot his logic down at the National Press Club debate. Producing ethanol to replace fossil fuels uses way more fosfuel than you save. It's a pointless and futile exercise. It's a jobs program for experts in and practitioners of futile exercise.

He's not hated by all greens. Note the calls for cutting back energy consumption. There's no conditionals, or tempering accompanying his implied call for "Earth first" principles. The author(s) of the article also speak of this guy from Berkley and another one from Cornell as the only 2 in the whole world that know better. That's not the case at all.

[cogitator]

Switchgrass is better than corn.

[ModelBreaker]

For the sake of the country, the differences between the two sides should be worked out, Sheehan said. "It has to be worked out," he said. "Because this country has to make rational choices."

Typical fuzzy left-wing thinking. If ethanol takes more energy to produce than it yields, then there is no middle ground. It's like saying we need to compromise on the value of Planck's constant or asking an engineer to be a more flexible by yielding just a little on the Second Law of Thermodynamics.